Hey limeys

Politics and other such topical creams.
Dr. Medulla
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Re: Hey limeys

Post by Dr. Medulla » 22 Feb 2019, 4:12pm

JennyB wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 3:41pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 12:47pm
JennyB wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 12:43pm
I would imagine reality is somewhere in the middle. But again, my relatives, who have been longtime lefties, are scared. I wish people would listen to them.
What's the nature of the fear? That is, what do they think Corbyn would do? (I'm not asking in a snarky way; genuine curiosity.)
It's not Corbyn, per se. They feel, much like we do here in the states with Trump, that he has fostered an environment that makes it OK for people to come out of the woodwork and spew their hatred. According to the Guardian, there were 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017. But people tend to not take antisemitism seriously because they see it as "punching up" and they often use the Israel excuse to back it up. But I would venture to guess that many people aren't necessarily as pro-Palestinian as they are anti-Jewish. I am the last person to claim antisemitism when someone criticizes Israel. But a lot of people hide behind that. And sometimes I feel that we are not allowed to determine what WE think is antisemitism.
Okay, I see. I'd like to think that it's sloppy thinking at work most of the time—conflating the actions of hard right Israeli politicians with Jews as a people—but even so inflamed discourse does encourage more and more ugly talk and behaviour. There's an old story about JFK talking about the dangers of adding US troops in Vietnam. He compared it to taking a drink. Yeah, one drink is fine, but then the effect wears off so you take another, and so on and so, each drink getting stronger. Soon you're an alcoholic. Opposing Israel's policies w/r/t Palestinians encourages more and more extreme rhetoric until, hey, look at that, you're engaged in anti-Semitism, if not an actual anti-Semite. Mix that with an environment more generally that encourages harsh talk and behaviour towards all kinds of Others. The demands on governing yourself only grow as the environment gets worse.

Your last comment speaks to the difficulty of perspective and, for lack of a better word, literacy. One group is better versed at picking up cues and dog whistles that other might not, giving them extra insight as to the nature of discourse that the general population misses. At the same time, sometimes that leads to over-sensitivity, missing out on cues understood better by other groups, and reaching the wrong conclusion. Appreciating that we have advantages and disadvantages in our perceptions is always wise, but, again, inflamed rhetoric encourages people to tune others out and seek confirmation of our inclinations, no matter what they are.
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Marky Dread
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Re: Hey limeys

Post by Marky Dread » 22 Feb 2019, 5:29pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 4:12pm
JennyB wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 3:41pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 12:47pm
JennyB wrote:
22 Feb 2019, 12:43pm
I would imagine reality is somewhere in the middle. But again, my relatives, who have been longtime lefties, are scared. I wish people would listen to them.
What's the nature of the fear? That is, what do they think Corbyn would do? (I'm not asking in a snarky way; genuine curiosity.)
It's not Corbyn, per se. They feel, much like we do here in the states with Trump, that he has fostered an environment that makes it OK for people to come out of the woodwork and spew their hatred. According to the Guardian, there were 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017. But people tend to not take antisemitism seriously because they see it as "punching up" and they often use the Israel excuse to back it up. But I would venture to guess that many people aren't necessarily as pro-Palestinian as they are anti-Jewish. I am the last person to claim antisemitism when someone criticizes Israel. But a lot of people hide behind that. And sometimes I feel that we are not allowed to determine what WE think is antisemitism.
Okay, I see. I'd like to think that it's sloppy thinking at work most of the time—conflating the actions of hard right Israeli politicians with Jews as a people—but even so inflamed discourse does encourage more and more ugly talk and behaviour. There's an old story about JFK talking about the dangers of adding US troops in Vietnam. He compared it to taking a drink. Yeah, one drink is fine, but then the effect wears off so you take another, and so on and so, each drink getting stronger. Soon you're an alcoholic. Opposing Israel's policies w/r/t Palestinians encourages more and more extreme rhetoric until, hey, look at that, you're engaged in anti-Semitism, if not an actual anti-Semite. Mix that with an environment more generally that encourages harsh talk and behaviour towards all kinds of Others. The demands on governing yourself only grow as the environment gets worse.

Your last comment speaks to the difficulty of perspective and, for lack of a better word, literacy. One group is better versed at picking up cues and dog whistles that other might not, giving them extra insight as to the nature of discourse that the general population misses. At the same time, sometimes that leads to over-sensitivity, missing out on cues understood better by other groups, and reaching the wrong conclusion. Appreciating that we have advantages and disadvantages in our perceptions is always wise, but, again, inflamed rhetoric encourages people to tune others out and seek confirmation of our inclinations, no matter what they are.
There are those that are well read and well versed on the rhetoric. Those whose intelligence allows them to know better and act accordingly. Then there are those who simply see hatred over colour/class/creed without any thought process and act. Both are incredibly dangerous and sometimes intelligence and ignorance walk hand in hand.
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