No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Never would have thought an NHLer to join in.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nh ... -1.5671743
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 7:08am
Never would have thought an NHLer to join in.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nh ... -1.5671743
Wow, good for him. Hoping it starts a trend.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

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I'm in the middle of a discussion with a particularly stat-minded conservative friend who, while he acknowledges that police brutality is out of control and he hates the police, he doesn't see any evidence of race being involved. He cites that whites are far more likely to be the victims of police brutality, that black cops are more likely to use firearms than white cops, that black people are more likely to be involved in violent crime (though he recognizes this may be the result of historical systemic racism, he doesn't believe contemporary systemic racism exists as far as laws on the books that exist solely to oppress minorities). I'm not finding a lot of these stats, but I am finding stats that might suggest that to him, since more white people in general are brutalized by police as the result of there simply being more white people in the country. I'm not sure if he's just forgetting about proportionality—it doesn't seem very like him to do so, but if anybody has any super-reliable stats offhand on this stuff that I haven't come across yet, I would certainly appreciate any extra numbers that I can rebut with.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I'm averse to getting into stat arguments because both sides can dig up favourable numbers to your argument, plus interpret them how you wish. Which is to say that stat-based arguments like to pretend to be objective, but they are just as subjective as any other.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

stats are only objectively correct in baseball
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Wolter »

Flex wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 4:29pm
stats are only objectively correct in baseball
And only when used to prove that Javy Baez is baseball’s only superstar.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

Kory wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 3:38pm
I'm in the middle of a discussion with a particularly stat-minded conservative friend who, while he acknowledges that police brutality is out of control and he hates the police, he doesn't see any evidence of race being involved. He cites that whites are far more likely to be the victims of police brutality, that black cops are more likely to use firearms than white cops, that black people are more likely to be involved in violent crime (though he recognizes this may be the result of historical systemic racism, he doesn't believe contemporary systemic racism exists as far as laws on the books that exist solely to oppress minorities). I'm not finding a lot of these stats, but I am finding stats that might suggest that to him, since more white people in general are brutalized by police as the result of there simply being more white people in the country. I'm not sure if he's just forgetting about proportionality—it doesn't seem very like him to do so, but if anybody has any super-reliable stats offhand on this stuff that I haven't come across yet, I would certainly appreciate any extra numbers that I can rebut with.
More seriously, I tend to agree with Doc that this will quickly turn into lies, damned lies and statistics territory but have you perused articles like this: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-syst ... 020-6?op=1
YOU MADE ONE MISTAKE, LENNON, YOU DOUBLE CROSSED MIKE LOVE AND LEFT HIM ALIVE

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Underlying these arguments against systemic racism is an assertion that African Americans are ignorant or, worse, lying about their daily experiences. From the days of slavery, with slave catchers and overseers, to lynch mobs and cops, there's a reason why black communities have taught their young to be wary of people in authority carrying weapons. Have they been lying? If it used to be bad but is no longer, what changed and why haven't African Americans accepted this change? People who rely on stats arguments tend to reject human experience that rebuts their own position.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Kory »

Flex wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 4:39pm
More seriously, I tend to agree with Doc that this will quickly turn into lies, damned lies and statistics territory but have you perused articles like this: https://www.businessinsider.com/us-syst ... 020-6?op=1
Dr. Medulla wrote:Underlying these arguments against systemic racism is an assertion that African Americans are ignorant or, worse, lying about their daily experiences. From the days of slavery, with slave catchers and overseers, to lynch mobs and cops, there's a reason why black communities have taught their young to be wary of people in authority carrying weapons. Have they been lying? If it used to be bad but is no longer, what changed and why haven't African Americans accepted this change? People who rely on stats arguments tend to reject human experience that rebuts their own position.
Yeah, I agree with that. I just don't think I'm going to get very far with this guy on a non-stat basis. He doesn't seem capable of thinking in other ways. The way to get to him (and he is open-minded to the point of listening to and considering conflicting evidence—I think he is only usually presented with evidence from his own conservative sources), is just to show him stats that support opposing views to his own, though I don't know how successful that will actually be, since as has been mentioned, he'd probably just come up with a rebuttal stat.

Thanks for the link Flex, this at least gives me a little bigger platform to stand on, even if it doesn't ultimately work.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I'll just suggest that if your friend only considers statistical evidence valid, he isn't that open-minded. Which isn't to say that qualitative evidence is the here-all and be-all—a blend is almost always the best—but that a reliance on quantitative evidence is an eager abstraction of human experience that actively seeks to remove human beings from the story. Whenever I encounter stat people, I think of a speech Robert Kennedy gave in 1968 in which he rejected our reliance on statistics to tell the whole story:
Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage.

It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl.

It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.

Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials.

It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country, it measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile.

And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by revbob »

I may be completely drunk right now Kory but your friend is a dick. I'll be sober tomorrow, your friend will still be a dick.

I know this lacks nuance etc but face it like our family sometimes our friends are assholes.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

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Drunk bob is our id. :cool:
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton »

Kory this is for you!!


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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by revbob »

101Walterton wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 9:23pm
Kory this is for you!!

Kory, you're a good person and this person is LUCKY to have you as a friend.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB »

Is this that doctor friend of yours?
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