No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

matedog wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 9:43am
I’m still unclear about liberals faith in the free market. I assumed Obama/bidencare would be a liberal ideal as it is rooted in the free market vs sanders/warren leftist (synonymous with socialist?) government run healthcare. But your post above seems to suggest otherwise.
Contrary to right-wing critiques, whether because they are libertarian absolutists or just cynical political cheap shots, liberals do believe in free markets as an expression of individual liberty. But they temper it with some regulation and restriction because they believe full-on free markets lead to great disparities of wealth, monopolies, and civil strife, which ends up harming liberty in a practical sense.

Perhaps think of it this way: libertarians don't worry about the result, for as long as the minimal rules are followed, the end must be just; liberals do think of the practical implications of minimal rules versus some state regulation/interference, seeking for some kind of balance between liberty and disparities that harms meaningful (not just abstract) liberty.

So Obamacare is a sensible modern liberal application of this principle. It avoids an absolutist free market position on healthcare—each person has to obtain health insurance based on the offer of the seller and the buyer's means and preferences, and if the two can't strike a deal, so be it—in favour of curbing that free market so that more people are able to participate, thus avoiding a situation where many without health insurance, which they believe harms a free society as a whole. Some liberty has to be compromised to preserve the larger application.

edit: A non-liberal position, socialist or even fascist, would say that healthcare is not an area of human existence subject to markets, regulated or otherwise; it is a basic human right. So they remove it from the market category altogether.
Last edited by Dr. Medulla on 08 Aug 2020, 10:03am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 9:59am
matedog wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 9:43am
I’m still unclear about liberals faith in the free market. I assumed Obama/bidencare would be a liberal ideal as it is rooted in the free market vs sanders/warren leftist (synonymous with socialist?) government run healthcare. But your post above seems to suggest otherwise.
Contrary to right-wing critiques, whether because they are libertarian absolutists or just cynical political cheap shots, liberals do believe in free markets as an expression of individual liberty. But they temper it with some regulation and restriction because they believe full-on free markets lead to great disparities of wealth, monopolies, and civil strife, which ends up harming liberty in a practical sense.

Perhaps think of it this way: libertarians don't worry about the result, for as long as the minimal rules are followed, the end must be just; liberals do think of the practical implications of minimal rules versus some state regulation/interference, seeking for some kind of balance between liberty and disparities that harms meaningful (not just abstract) liberty.

So Obamacare is a sensible modern liberal application of this principle. It avoids an absolutist free market position on healthcare—each person has to obtain health insurance based on the offer of the seller and the buyer's means and preferences, and if the two can't strike a deal, so be it—in favour of curbing that free market so that more people are able to participate, thus avoiding a situation where many without health insurance, which they believe harms a free society as a whole. Some liberty has to be compromised to preserve the larger application.
Thank fuck for Britain's labour party.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:02am
Thank fuck for Britain's labour party.
Compared to the Tories, yes, tho they're a far stretch from what they used to be. Actually, Thatcher's horrific comment that there's no such thing as society is a very libertarian stance. That's not how she meant it, from what I understand, but rather she was emphasizing class over individual, but in both cases the notion of common interest and mutual responsibility, with government playing a key role in administering that common interest, is completely abhorrent to them both.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 11:00am
Marky Dread wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 10:02am
Thank fuck for Britain's labour party.
Compared to the Tories, yes, tho they're a far stretch from what they used to be. Actually, Thatcher's horrific comment that there's no such thing as society is a very libertarian stance. That's not how she meant it, from what I understand, but rather she was emphasizing class over individual, but in both cases the notion of common interest and mutual responsibility, with government playing a key role in administering that common interest, is completely abhorrent to them both.
The Labour party set up our NHS just after the 2nd WW. So yes they are not what they were but we can still be thankful for what they were. As for Maggie she will always be the great abuser of the working class.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by BostonBeaneater »

"I’m a Trump guy," Epstein told WESH. "But until the police fix this problem, I don’t blame black people for being upset when they get arrested."



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/do ... ng-n901711
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton »

BostonBeaneater wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 7:49pm
"I’m a Trump guy," Epstein told WESH. "But until the police fix this problem, I don’t blame black people for being upset when they get arrested."



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/do ... ng-n901711
3 cops sitting on top of a guy and they still need to pepper spray him from point blank range 😳

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by matedog »

Given the level of brain function this guy may have lost, racism might be over for him:


*edit* - I don't want to promote violence as an acceptable way to address these issues, but I do take a cheap pleasure in seeing this happen.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by WestwayKid »

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/24/us/kenos ... index.html

This went down last night in my neck of the woods. Kenosha is 45 minutes south of Milwaukee (on the way to Chicago). The guy was attempting to break up an altercation and a Kenosha officer shot him in the back several times. His kids were in the car (they're 3, 5 & 8). He's still alive, but in serious condition.

We're driving down tonight for a march. Several of my friends are ACLU observers (I need to find time to take the training). It just really feels like we can't sit this one out.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:28pm
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/24/us/kenos ... index.html

This went down last night in my neck of the woods. Kenosha is 45 minutes south of Milwaukee (on the way to Chicago). The guy was attempting to break up an altercation and a Kenosha officer shot him in the back several times. His kids were in the car (they're 3, 5 & 8). He's still alive, but in serious condition.

We're driving down tonight for a march. Several of my friends are ACLU observers (I need to find time to take the training). It just really feels like we can't sit this one out.
I watched this on the news last night. Completely disgusting. Take care out there mate.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by WestwayKid »

Marky Dread wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:47pm
WestwayKid wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:28pm
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/24/us/kenos ... index.html

This went down last night in my neck of the woods. Kenosha is 45 minutes south of Milwaukee (on the way to Chicago). The guy was attempting to break up an altercation and a Kenosha officer shot him in the back several times. His kids were in the car (they're 3, 5 & 8). He's still alive, but in serious condition.

We're driving down tonight for a march. Several of my friends are ACLU observers (I need to find time to take the training). It just really feels like we can't sit this one out.
I watched this on the news last night. Completely disgusting. Take care out there mate.
We will. It sometimes feels like a tough call: staying home because there is a chance that a peaceful protest might turn violent or taking the chance and heading out. We decided to go tonight because 1) I don't have my kids today and 2) the march will be held before it gets dark. It also just feels very important to do something and without being cavalier, I think we need to accept at least a small level of risk. That said, we will be as careful as we can be and if it looks at all sketchy we will head back home.
"Geoff who takes kids camping is dead all the boys except Rusty are missing." - revbob
"Tom checks the ingredients on "Uncle Pusher's Old Timey Cocaine Filled Cider" - Silent Majority

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:56pm
Marky Dread wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:47pm
WestwayKid wrote:
24 Aug 2020, 12:28pm
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/24/us/kenos ... index.html

This went down last night in my neck of the woods. Kenosha is 45 minutes south of Milwaukee (on the way to Chicago). The guy was attempting to break up an altercation and a Kenosha officer shot him in the back several times. His kids were in the car (they're 3, 5 & 8). He's still alive, but in serious condition.

We're driving down tonight for a march. Several of my friends are ACLU observers (I need to find time to take the training). It just really feels like we can't sit this one out.
I watched this on the news last night. Completely disgusting. Take care out there mate.
We will. It sometimes feels like a tough call: staying home because there is a chance that a peaceful protest might turn violent or taking the chance and heading out. We decided to go tonight because 1) I don't have my kids today and 2) the march will be held before it gets dark. It also just feels very important to do something and without being cavalier, I think we need to accept at least a small level of risk. That said, we will be as careful as we can be and if it looks at all sketchy we will head back home.
I understand totally the passion and infuriating nature of these things all too well. It is easy to get caught up in the emotion and injustice felt. I admire your principles, just stay safe.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by WestwayKid »

We went to a peaceful protest in Kenosha last night. It was surreal. They had all the freeway exits closed from just south of Milwaukee all the way to the Illinois border. We were able to get off just before they closed our exit. The city center in Kenosha looked like a war zone. They had used garbage trucks to barricade the roads on Sunday night and rioters had set them on fire...so burned out trucks were all over the place. I counted at least 10. We saw several businesses that had burned down, including a used car lot. The county courthouse was covered in graffiti and everywhere you looked windows were boarded up. The police presence was very strong and very militaristic. They were all in riot gear, many armed with automatic rifles. The sheriff's department had a handful of armored personnel carriers and those cops were dressed in full military garb.

We stuck around for an hour and took part in a very well organized protest. It was very uplifting and peaceful, but then we got the heck out. All hell broke loose once the sun went down again.

A lot of white people are going nuts right now. My cousin (who lives in Kenosha) posted an ugly FB post. It was very pro-police and she called out the "radical left" and complained about all of the property damage. It was pretty gross. I snoozed her for now.

I've never felt the rage of 400 years of oppression. I've never felt the rage of trying to live within a system designed to crush me. I can't understand that level of rage and frustration and so I cannot cast judgement on it. I strongly support peaceful protests. I believe the best way to make change is to organize, unite, and vote...but this outpouring of rage is real and I get where it comes from, even if I cannot feel it.
"Geoff who takes kids camping is dead all the boys except Rusty are missing." - revbob
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 9:40am
We went to a peaceful protest in Kenosha last night. It was surreal. They had all the freeway exits closed from just south of Milwaukee all the way to the Illinois border. We were able to get off just before they closed our exit. The city center in Kenosha looked like a war zone. They had used garbage trucks to barricade the roads on Sunday night and rioters had set them on fire...so burned out trucks were all over the place. I counted at least 10. We saw several businesses that had burned down, including a used car lot. The county courthouse was covered in graffiti and everywhere you looked windows were boarded up. The police presence was very strong and very militaristic. They were all in riot gear, many armed with automatic rifles. The sheriff's department had a handful of armored personnel carriers and those cops were dressed in full military garb.

We stuck around for an hour and took part in a very well organized protest. It was very uplifting and peaceful, but then we got the heck out. All hell broke loose once the sun went down again.

A lot of white people are going nuts right now. My cousin (who lives in Kenosha) posted an ugly FB post. It was very pro-police and she called out the "radical left" and complained about all of the property damage. It was pretty gross. I snoozed her for now.

I've never felt the rage of 400 years of oppression. I've never felt the rage of trying to live within a system designed to crush me. I can't understand that level of rage and frustration and so I cannot cast judgement on it. I strongly support peaceful protests. I believe the best way to make change is to organize, unite, and vote...but this outpouring of rage is real and I get where it comes from, even if I cannot feel it.
The problem is many of those black people are carrying that weight around like a huge chip on their shoulders. I completely understand why they do also. But ultimately fighting hate with hate only leads to more hate.

There are never any winners when the last resort to violence breaks. You can burn down all the neighbourhoods and fight the police but you will not break the system.

I've been very guilty of fighting physically evil like the National Front. But kicking someone's head in won't make him less racist. Got to find another way and get people who care into power.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by WestwayKid »

Marky Dread wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 11:09am
WestwayKid wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 9:40am
We went to a peaceful protest in Kenosha last night. It was surreal. They had all the freeway exits closed from just south of Milwaukee all the way to the Illinois border. We were able to get off just before they closed our exit. The city center in Kenosha looked like a war zone. They had used garbage trucks to barricade the roads on Sunday night and rioters had set them on fire...so burned out trucks were all over the place. I counted at least 10. We saw several businesses that had burned down, including a used car lot. The county courthouse was covered in graffiti and everywhere you looked windows were boarded up. The police presence was very strong and very militaristic. They were all in riot gear, many armed with automatic rifles. The sheriff's department had a handful of armored personnel carriers and those cops were dressed in full military garb.

We stuck around for an hour and took part in a very well organized protest. It was very uplifting and peaceful, but then we got the heck out. All hell broke loose once the sun went down again.

A lot of white people are going nuts right now. My cousin (who lives in Kenosha) posted an ugly FB post. It was very pro-police and she called out the "radical left" and complained about all of the property damage. It was pretty gross. I snoozed her for now.

I've never felt the rage of 400 years of oppression. I've never felt the rage of trying to live within a system designed to crush me. I can't understand that level of rage and frustration and so I cannot cast judgement on it. I strongly support peaceful protests. I believe the best way to make change is to organize, unite, and vote...but this outpouring of rage is real and I get where it comes from, even if I cannot feel it.
The problem is many of those black people are carrying that weight around like a huge chip on their shoulders. I completely understand why they do also. But ultimately fighting hate with hate only leads to more hate.

There are never any winners when the last resort to violence breaks. You can burn down all the neighbourhoods and fight the police but you will not break the system.

I've been very guilty of fighting physically evil like the National Front. But kicking someone's head in won't make him less racist. Got to find another way and get people who care into power.
I agree. The violence also feeds a counter narrative that all protesters are a violent mob and I feel like that's the minority. We've had a lot of protests in Milwaukee this summer and the vast majority have been peaceful and well organized. They have helped bring the community together, but you turn on the news and it seems like all you see are burning garbage trucks and broken windows.
"Geoff who takes kids camping is dead all the boys except Rusty are missing." - revbob
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 11:31am
Marky Dread wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 11:09am
WestwayKid wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 9:40am
We went to a peaceful protest in Kenosha last night. It was surreal. They had all the freeway exits closed from just south of Milwaukee all the way to the Illinois border. We were able to get off just before they closed our exit. The city center in Kenosha looked like a war zone. They had used garbage trucks to barricade the roads on Sunday night and rioters had set them on fire...so burned out trucks were all over the place. I counted at least 10. We saw several businesses that had burned down, including a used car lot. The county courthouse was covered in graffiti and everywhere you looked windows were boarded up. The police presence was very strong and very militaristic. They were all in riot gear, many armed with automatic rifles. The sheriff's department had a handful of armored personnel carriers and those cops were dressed in full military garb.

We stuck around for an hour and took part in a very well organized protest. It was very uplifting and peaceful, but then we got the heck out. All hell broke loose once the sun went down again.

A lot of white people are going nuts right now. My cousin (who lives in Kenosha) posted an ugly FB post. It was very pro-police and she called out the "radical left" and complained about all of the property damage. It was pretty gross. I snoozed her for now.

I've never felt the rage of 400 years of oppression. I've never felt the rage of trying to live within a system designed to crush me. I can't understand that level of rage and frustration and so I cannot cast judgement on it. I strongly support peaceful protests. I believe the best way to make change is to organize, unite, and vote...but this outpouring of rage is real and I get where it comes from, even if I cannot feel it.
The problem is many of those black people are carrying that weight around like a huge chip on their shoulders. I completely understand why they do also. But ultimately fighting hate with hate only leads to more hate.

There are never any winners when the last resort to violence breaks. You can burn down all the neighbourhoods and fight the police but you will not break the system.

I've been very guilty of fighting physically evil like the National Front. But kicking someone's head in won't make him less racist. Got to find another way and get people who care into power.
I agree. The violence also feeds a counter narrative that all protesters are a violent mob and I feel like that's the minority. We've had a lot of protests in Milwaukee this summer and the vast majority have been peaceful and well organized. They have helped bring the community together, but you turn on the news and it seems like all you see are burning garbage trucks and broken windows.
Yes the media are as much the enemy as anyone in this instance. Sensationalising the violence which in turn creates copy cat situations.
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