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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 2:55pm
by revbob
Flex wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 2:28pm
I have a bunch of mixed feelings on the efficacy of violence (and how we even define "violence"), as well as gun control (and I'm sure a search on these forums would reveal shifting, ping-ponging views from me over the years). I generally don't feel qualified to say with authority what's right or wrong from moral, strategic or tactical perspectives and my position as a white, male middle class person largely disqualifies whatever I'd have to say anyways other than: I support the views, even when they're contradictory, of movements of liberation and my goal is not to undermine shit.
Except, I will say it's deeply fucked up that we categorize the destruction of property as "violence" as if it was a person being attacked. Burning down a thousand Targets and smashing a thousand Starbucks windows doesn't begin to compare to the cops (or some psycho militia nut) murdering a single person. That I'm pretty confident about.
I agree with much of this.
I respect what people say about nonviolence but history has shown the non violent alternative is only acceptable to those in power when also faced with an armed movement. Until then they dismiss and seek to undermine those seeking nonviolent change.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 2:56pm
by Dr. Medulla
Flex wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 2:28pm
I have a bunch of mixed feelings on the efficacy of violence (and how we even define "violence"), as well as gun control (and I'm sure a search on these forums would reveal shifting, ping-ponging views from me over the years). I generally don't feel qualified to say with authority what's right or wrong from moral, strategic or tactical perspectives and my position as a white, male middle class person largely disqualifies whatever I'd have to say anyways other than: I support the views, even when they're contradictory, of movements of liberation and my goal is not to undermine shit.
Except, I will say it's deeply fucked up that we categorize the destruction of property as "violence" as if it was a person being attacked. Burning down a thousand Targets and smashing a thousand Starbucks windows doesn't begin to compare to the cops (or some psycho militia nut) murdering a single person. That I'm pretty confident about.
I generally agree with all this. I'm open about my pacifism, but also know that my status and experience informs it, and that I'm pretty goddamned lucky in all that, so I can't condemn people in the street mixing it up with assholes and fascists. I disagree philosophically and so I can't endorse it, but I've never thought I have all (or any) of the answers, so it's just disagreement and willingness to discuss.
One of the things I find a bit interesting by those on the right is to invalidate any protest that involves violence, as if violence and protest are so incompatible rather than, historically, the norm. MLK's non-violent approach was so stunning and effective in no small part because non-violent protest was unusual. But on the right, it's now treated as the only legitimate form—albeit not out of respect, but to shrink the window of what is legitimate protest.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 3:48pm
by Marky Dread
Flex wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 2:28pm
I have a bunch of mixed feelings on the efficacy of violence (and how we even define "violence"), as well as gun control (and I'm sure a search on these forums would reveal shifting, ping-ponging views from me over the years). I generally don't feel qualified to say with authority what's right or wrong from moral, strategic or tactical perspectives and my position as a white, male middle class person largely disqualifies whatever I'd have to say anyways other than: I support the views, even when they're contradictory, of movements of liberation and my goal is not to undermine shit.
Except, I will say it's deeply fucked up that we categorize the destruction of property as "violence" as if it was a person being attacked. Burning down a thousand Targets and smashing a thousand Starbucks windows doesn't begin to compare to the cops (or some psycho militia nut) murdering a single person. That I'm pretty confident about.
I don't consider the destruction of property the same as violence against a living breathing person who others may well depend upon. But smashing shop windows etc is not effective in any way. It will all be covered by insurance. Most likely someone you know works in the shop and they are now affected. When the violence is taken to the streets there are only ever losers on both sides. What also concerns me is others coming into an area from out of town to cause destruction then return home leaving the mess for those that live there to clean up and continue living there.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:01pm
by 101Walterton
Don’t know how much of the Christchurch Mosque shooters sentencing has been covered overseas but listening to the victim impact statements they showed remarkable restraint and humility. Even when tempers boiled over they were able to control their actions.
I think a few lessons could be learnt in how to conduct yourself even in the face of extreme provocation.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:09pm
by revbob
101Walterton wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:01pm
Don’t know how much of the Christchurch Mosque shooters sentencing has been covered overseas but listening to the victim impact statements they showed remarkable restraint and humility. Even when tempers boiled over they were able to control their actions.
I think a few lessons could be learnt in how to conduct yourself even in the face of extreme provocation.
Perhaps but this is a case of apples v kiwis. There is a big difference when agents of the state pull the trigger and historically they've done so largely without fear of prosecution or of even being charged with anything..
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
by WestwayKid
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
by revbob
WestwayKid wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:36pm
by BostonBeaneater
There's a logic out there that says sending in columns of armored vehicles in will calm things down. I consider this a green flag for a riot.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:48pm
by Dr. Medulla
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
No, in support of protesters. That pro athletes—normally pretty apolitical, don't court controversy people—are increasingly standing out is pretty remarkable and suggestive of how much the needle has moved.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:50pm
by revbob
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:48pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
No, in support of protesters. That pro athletes—normally pretty apolitical, don't court controversy people—are increasingly standing out is pretty remarkable and suggestive of how much the needle has moved.
Wow, didn't expect that. I guess I could support the Brew Crew now that they are an NL team.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 6:57pm
by Dr. Medulla
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:50pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:48pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
No, in support of protesters. That pro athletes—normally pretty apolitical, don't court controversy people—are increasingly standing out is pretty remarkable and suggestive of how much the needle has moved.
Wow, didn't expect that. I guess I could support the Brew Crew now that they are an NL team.
And now all NBA playoff games have been postponed tonight.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 7:09pm
by revbob
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:57pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:50pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:48pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm
The Milwaukee Bucks refused to come out for their Game 5 match up against the Magic today and now the Milwaukee Brewers have said they will not take the field against Cincinnati.
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
No, in support of protesters. That pro athletes—normally pretty apolitical, don't court controversy people—are increasingly standing out is pretty remarkable and suggestive of how much the needle has moved.
Wow, didn't expect that. I guess I could support the Brew Crew now that they are an NL team.
And now all NBA playoff games have been postponed tonight.
Good on them.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 7:27pm
by Dr. Medulla
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 7:09pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:57pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:50pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:48pm
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:20pm
Have they given reasons? Is it fear of rioting or something else.
No, in support of protesters. That pro athletes—normally pretty apolitical, don't court controversy people—are increasingly standing out is pretty remarkable and suggestive of how much the needle has moved.
Wow, didn't expect that. I guess I could support the Brew Crew now that they are an NL team.
And now all NBA playoff games have been postponed tonight.
Good on them.
If nothing else, it makes it harder for bigots to enjoy sports.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 8:09pm
by 101Walterton
revbob wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:09pm
101Walterton wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:01pm
Don’t know how much of the Christchurch Mosque shooters sentencing has been covered overseas but listening to the victim impact statements they showed remarkable restraint and humility. Even when tempers boiled over they were able to control their actions.
I think a few lessons could be learnt in how to conduct yourself even in the face of extreme provocation.
Perhaps but this is a case of apples v kiwis. There is a big difference when agents of the state pull the trigger and historically they've done so largely without fear of prosecution or of even being charged with anything..
I don’t get your point. My post was nothing to do with what is happening in America.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 8:15pm
by Heston
101Walterton wrote: ↑26 Aug 2020, 6:01pm
Don’t know how much of the Christchurch Mosque shooters sentencing has been covered overseas but listening to the victim impact statements they showed remarkable restraint and humility. Even when tempers boiled over they were able to control their actions.
I think a few lessons could be learnt in how to conduct yourself even in the face of extreme provocation.
I've heard a few news reports. A mother of one of the victims gave a great account of herself.