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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 4:33pm
by Kory
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:36pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:25pm
Yup. He's turned into a crabby old racist.
The curiosity is what happened. It seems more likely than not that he's always held these views, but they were either less developed or held back. Has he been swept up in the fascist and xenophobic wave or is his openness the result of something personal (e.g., his health scare from a few years back). But he's out and proud now and stands with the bullies and bigots we all thought he opposed back in the 80s.
He was never particularly explicit about it though, was he? There's nothing in his lyrics to really suggest he was ever talking to anyone other than white Brits.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 4:39pm
by Dr. Medulla
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:36pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:25pm
Yup. He's turned into a crabby old racist.
The curiosity is what happened. It seems more likely than not that he's always held these views, but they were either less developed or held back. Has he been swept up in the fascist and xenophobic wave or is his openness the result of something personal (e.g., his health scare from a few years back). But he's out and proud now and stands with the bullies and bigots we all thought he opposed back in the 80s.
He was never particularly explicit about it though, was he? There's nothing in his lyrics to really suggest he was ever talking to anyone other than white Brits.
Explicit about what?
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 4:44pm
by Kory
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:39pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:36pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:25pm
Yup. He's turned into a crabby old racist.
The curiosity is what happened. It seems more likely than not that he's always held these views, but they were either less developed or held back. Has he been swept up in the fascist and xenophobic wave or is his openness the result of something personal (e.g., his health scare from a few years back). But he's out and proud now and stands with the bullies and bigots we all thought he opposed back in the 80s.
He was never particularly explicit about it though, was he? There's nothing in his lyrics to really suggest he was ever talking to anyone other than white Brits.
Explicit about what?
That he was a friend to all the oppressed rather than just willowy white kids.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 4:49pm
by Dr. Medulla
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:44pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:39pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:36pm
WestwayKid wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:25pm
Yup. He's turned into a crabby old racist.
The curiosity is what happened. It seems more likely than not that he's always held these views, but they were either less developed or held back. Has he been swept up in the fascist and xenophobic wave or is his openness the result of something personal (e.g., his health scare from a few years back). But he's out and proud now and stands with the bullies and bigots we all thought he opposed back in the 80s.
He was never particularly explicit about it though, was he? There's nothing in his lyrics to really suggest he was ever talking to anyone other than white Brits.
Explicit about what?
That he was a friend to all the oppressed rather than just willowy white kids.
Ah, gotcha. And you're right, there is nothing explicit in retrospect. It was an assumption that he was making a more universal claim to speak for all marginalized people.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 5:27pm
by Kory
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:49pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:44pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:39pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 1:36pm
The curiosity is what happened. It seems more likely than not that he's always held these views, but they were either less developed or held back. Has he been swept up in the fascist and xenophobic wave or is his openness the result of something personal (e.g., his health scare from a few years back). But he's out and proud now and stands with the bullies and bigots we all thought he opposed back in the 80s.
He was never particularly explicit about it though, was he? There's nothing in his lyrics to really suggest he was ever talking to anyone other than white Brits.
Explicit about what?
That he was a friend to all the oppressed rather than just willowy white kids.
Ah, gotcha. And you're right, there is nothing explicit in retrospect. It was an assumption that he was making a more universal claim to speak for all marginalized people.
I don't want to be insensitive but I'm slightly surprised that people are surprised, with this being the case. As far as I know, he didn't make political views (other than hating the queen) very clear in interviews either, so there's nothing other than people's own interpretation of the lyrics that made them feel like Morrissey was an inclusive dude. If a lot of the furor is around people feeling betrayed by their personal interpretation more than it is about just the facts of the recent reports, I think it speaks more to Cave's point that if people got what they needed out of these songs by interpreting the lyrics however they needed to, maybe that's strong and valuable enough without the political views of the guy that wrote them. I understand the need to identify with the artist though so I'm really just musing here.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 5:38pm
by Dr. Medulla
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 5:27pm
I don't want to be insensitive but I'm slightly surprised that people are surprised, with this being the case. As far as I know, he didn't make political views (other than hating the queen) very clear in interviews either, so there's nothing other than people's own interpretation of the lyrics that made them feel like Morrissey was an inclusive dude. If a lot of the furor is around people feeling betrayed by their personal interpretation more than it is about just the facts of the recent reports, I think it speaks more to Cave's point that if people got what they needed out of these songs by interpreting the lyrics however they needed to, maybe that's strong and valuable enough without the political views of the guy that wrote them. I understand the need to identify with the artist though so I'm really just musing here.
No, you're right that it is about what people interpreted and got out of it—i.e., it's fundamentally on the audience. But I would think think, tho, that unless the singer makes a point of naming a particular group of people in the song, the assumption is that the sentiment is universal. And especially when the subject matter is often about the excluded deserving their due, that doesn't suggest it's going to be for just white people. So it's not unreasonable to think that he was singing for some kind of mythical we. Discovering that there was, perhaps, division laced in those songs that seemed to be about inclusion can be a bit dispiriting. Plus we'd like to think that we're making some kind of human connection with a like-minded person. Is the lesson that we not humanize our relationship with the art and the artist because it might break our heart down the road? Maybe. I dunno.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 5:50pm
by Kory
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 5:38pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 5:27pm
I don't want to be insensitive but I'm slightly surprised that people are surprised, with this being the case. As far as I know, he didn't make political views (other than hating the queen) very clear in interviews either, so there's nothing other than people's own interpretation of the lyrics that made them feel like Morrissey was an inclusive dude. If a lot of the furor is around people feeling betrayed by their personal interpretation more than it is about just the facts of the recent reports, I think it speaks more to Cave's point that if people got what they needed out of these songs by interpreting the lyrics however they needed to, maybe that's strong and valuable enough without the political views of the guy that wrote them. I understand the need to identify with the artist though so I'm really just musing here.
No, you're right that it is about what people interpreted and got out of it—i.e., it's fundamentally on the audience. But I would think think, tho, that unless the singer makes a point of naming a particular group of people in the song, the assumption is that the sentiment is universal. And especially when the subject matter is often about the excluded deserving their due, that doesn't suggest it's going to be for just white people. So it's not unreasonable to think that he was singing for some kind of mythical we. Discovering that there was, perhaps, division laced in those songs that seemed to be about inclusion can be a bit dispiriting. Plus we'd like to think that we're making some kind of human connection with a like-minded person. Is the lesson that we not humanize our relationship with the art and the artist because it might break our heart down the road? Maybe. I dunno.
That's kind of what I do, though it's obviously not the correct answer for everybody. I've always had a "never meet your heroes" mentality ever since MC Hammer let me down by using curse words in his album tracks (2017 was a hell of a year) and I suppose my mistrust of celebrity beyond what they produce has only grown since then.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 6:41pm
by oliver
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:44pm
That he was a friend to all the oppressed rather than just willowy white kids.
I don't know about all the oppressed but he does have songs specifically to oppressed non-willowy-white-kids. Mexico, Who Will Protect Us From The Police (about Venezuela), The Girl From Tel-Aviv Who Wouldn't Kneel to name but three.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 8:04pm
by Dr. Medulla
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 5:50pm
That's kind of what I do, though it's obviously not the correct answer for everybody. I've always had a "never meet your heroes" mentality ever since MC Hammer let me down by using curse words in his album tracks (2017 was a hell of a year) and I suppose my mistrust of celebrity beyond what they produce has only grown since then.
There's a wonderful piece of Bertolt Brecht, a conversation between two characters (paraphrasing), that I've taken to heart:
Unhappy is the land that has no heroes.
No, unhappy is the land that needs a hero.
I have people whom I admire and inspire—Robert Kennedy and Dwight Macdonald come to mind, along with the less famous, including some people here—but I don't regard them as heroes. I keep them at arm's length and never surrender my critical stance toward them. I prefer how the Greeks treated their gods rather than how Christians regards theirs. Christians want unassailable perfection; the Greeks had gods with moral failings who could instruct even as they inspired.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 28 Jun 2019, 8:26pm
by Flex
Turns out Morrissey was just an incel Nazi this whole time. The worm turned for him like every other Reddit shithead who whines about black Chads. Punch Nazis and keep them out of respectable society.
Addendum: #drunkpost
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 29 Jun 2019, 5:33pm
by Kory
oliver wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 6:41pm
Kory wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 4:44pm
That he was a friend to all the oppressed rather than just willowy white kids.
I don't know about all the oppressed but he does have songs specifically to oppressed non-willowy-white-kids. Mexico, Who Will Protect Us From The Police (about Venezuela), The Girl From Tel-Aviv Who Wouldn't Kneel to name but three.
True enough, I was just noting that most peole love hime because of his Smiths days.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 08 Jul 2019, 6:15pm
by tepista
how on earth was the article not titled "Bigmouth Strikes Again"?
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 9:37am
by WestwayKid
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 9:51am
by WestwayKid
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/08/us/arizo ... index.html
Wow.
I listen to rap music. I wonder if this psycho would feel threatened by me? Oh wait. I'm white.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 10:20am
by Dr. Medulla
What I appreciate about BB is that he's demonstrated that growing older does not me shuffling off silly ideas like human dignity and demands for equality.