Police Misconduct: Tracked

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revbob
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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:27pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:22pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 8:59pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 8:56pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 3:44pm
I keep hoping, whenever these assaults by cops happen, that, finally, this will be the event that leads to an end to qualified immunity and structural changes that will better inhibit them. Make a cop feel reluctant to use violence, make them scared of the repercussions if they force isn't truly a last resort.
Oh my Sweet summer child
Give up hope, give into defeat. Sometimes you have to go for your heart to go on.
I think change is possible, but it's not going to come from incremental reform. Police have proven themselves too wiley and duplicatous for that.
Certainly. But there’s always that one moment where things get pushed in one direction or another in ways that didn’t seem likely before. And this latest horror hasn’t generated the usual defence of police from police. I hope.
Well I have to believe that if those cops were white this would be playing out a whole lot differently.

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 11:00pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:27pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:22pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 8:59pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 8:56pm


Oh my Sweet summer child
Give up hope, give into defeat. Sometimes you have to go for your heart to go on.
I think change is possible, but it's not going to come from incremental reform. Police have proven themselves too wiley and duplicatous for that.
Certainly. But there’s always that one moment where things get pushed in one direction or another in ways that didn’t seem likely before. And this latest horror hasn’t generated the usual defence of police from police. I hope.
Well I have to believe that if those cops were white this would be playing out a whole lot differently.
For moving the argument, it's better that they weren't white, to understand how institutionalized racism operates and that the way forward requires institutional change. Seeing the problem as resting in the hearts of individuals—that Sesame Street view of the world—hinders meaningful improvement.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 7:39am
revbob wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 11:00pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:27pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:22pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 8:59pm


Give up hope, give into defeat. Sometimes you have to go for your heart to go on.
I think change is possible, but it's not going to come from incremental reform. Police have proven themselves too wiley and duplicatous for that.
Certainly. But there’s always that one moment where things get pushed in one direction or another in ways that didn’t seem likely before. And this latest horror hasn’t generated the usual defence of police from police. I hope.
Well I have to believe that if those cops were white this would be playing out a whole lot differently.
For moving the argument, it's better that they weren't white, to understand how institutionalized racism operates and that the way forward requires institutional change. Seeing the problem as resting in the hearts of individuals—that Sesame Street view of the world—hinders meaningful improvement.
I hope that's the case. But I think it will take more. White cops killing young blonde women on the same scale might be what it really takes to move forward.

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 1:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 7:39am
revbob wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 11:00pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:27pm
Flex wrote:
28 Jan 2023, 10:22pm


I think change is possible, but it's not going to come from incremental reform. Police have proven themselves too wiley and duplicatous for that.
Certainly. But there’s always that one moment where things get pushed in one direction or another in ways that didn’t seem likely before. And this latest horror hasn’t generated the usual defence of police from police. I hope.
Well I have to believe that if those cops were white this would be playing out a whole lot differently.
For moving the argument, it's better that they weren't white, to understand how institutionalized racism operates and that the way forward requires institutional change. Seeing the problem as resting in the hearts of individuals—that Sesame Street view of the world—hinders meaningful improvement.
I hope that's the case. But I think it will take more. White cops killing young blonde women on the same scale might be what it really takes to move forward.
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 2:07pm
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
Really? My impression is the exact opposite. Despite scrutiny of some of the worst, most horrific examples of police brutality the policy-level commitment is more pro-cop than ever before. Hell, in liberal-controlled New York, governor Hochul JUST announced she was opposed to any attempts to end qualified immunity. Here in Colorado Dems ran on a law-and-order platform with promises to beef up police budgets and afaik they're doing in it. I've documented on this forum my own city's active work to undermine (quite successfully so far) court ordered police reforms.

The term "defund the police" is underwater across all demographic groups, including African american demographics that used to support the movement. However you want to parcel out the blame, and there's plenty to go around, substantive police reform seems - to me - to be less popular and less likely than at any point in at least the last half decade.
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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by motorsmell »

The key thing is melanin does not does not dictate the amount of bastard any one has there character.
Humans are just that and unfortunately some are cunts.
Treat everyone you come across with respect...if everyone did this perhaps we wouldn't have disgusting shit like this.

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 5:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 2:07pm
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
Really? My impression is the exact opposite. Despite scrutiny of some of the worst, most horrific examples of police brutality the policy-level commitment is more pro-cop than ever before. Hell, in liberal-controlled New York, governor Hochul JUST announced she was opposed to any attempts to end qualified immunity. Here in Colorado Dems ran on a law-and-order platform with promises to beef up police budgets and afaik they're doing in it. I've documented on this forum my own city's active work to undermine (quite successfully so far) court ordered police reforms.

The term "defund the police" is underwater across all demographic groups, including African american demographics that used to support the movement. However you want to parcel out the blame, and there's plenty to go around, substantive police reform seems - to me - to be less popular and less likely than at any point in at least the last half decade.
Hmmm. Perhaps I'm being unduly influenced by media coverage, which seems to privilege reform positions. I certainly wouldn't dispute a disconnect between discourse and political action, but got the sense that skepticism toward police tactics was greater.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 7:11pm
Flex wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 5:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 2:07pm
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
Really? My impression is the exact opposite. Despite scrutiny of some of the worst, most horrific examples of police brutality the policy-level commitment is more pro-cop than ever before. Hell, in liberal-controlled New York, governor Hochul JUST announced she was opposed to any attempts to end qualified immunity. Here in Colorado Dems ran on a law-and-order platform with promises to beef up police budgets and afaik they're doing in it. I've documented on this forum my own city's active work to undermine (quite successfully so far) court ordered police reforms.

The term "defund the police" is underwater across all demographic groups, including African american demographics that used to support the movement. However you want to parcel out the blame, and there's plenty to go around, substantive police reform seems - to me - to be less popular and less likely than at any point in at least the last half decade.
Hmmm. Perhaps I'm being unduly influenced by media coverage, which seems to privilege reform positions. I certainly wouldn't dispute a disconnect between discourse and political action, but got the sense that skepticism toward police tactics was greater.
Well, to meet in the middle, I think it's often true that political action by elites is a lagging indicator of public sentiment (to put it mildly). One of those things where change seems nowhere and then everywhere all at once, potentially.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 7:16pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 7:11pm
Flex wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 5:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 2:07pm
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
Really? My impression is the exact opposite. Despite scrutiny of some of the worst, most horrific examples of police brutality the policy-level commitment is more pro-cop than ever before. Hell, in liberal-controlled New York, governor Hochul JUST announced she was opposed to any attempts to end qualified immunity. Here in Colorado Dems ran on a law-and-order platform with promises to beef up police budgets and afaik they're doing in it. I've documented on this forum my own city's active work to undermine (quite successfully so far) court ordered police reforms.

The term "defund the police" is underwater across all demographic groups, including African american demographics that used to support the movement. However you want to parcel out the blame, and there's plenty to go around, substantive police reform seems - to me - to be less popular and less likely than at any point in at least the last half decade.
Hmmm. Perhaps I'm being unduly influenced by media coverage, which seems to privilege reform positions. I certainly wouldn't dispute a disconnect between discourse and political action, but got the sense that skepticism toward police tactics was greater.
Well, to meet in the middle, I think it's often true that political action by elites is a lagging indicator of public sentiment (to put it mildly). One of those things where change seems nowhere and then everywhere all at once, potentially.
Yeah, that's kind of thing I'm hoping for. Years and years later, historians can discern the trends that lead to significant changes, but often, at the time, it seems unexpected, where conventional wisdom is bafflingly overturned.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by WestwayKid »

Flex wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 5:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 Jan 2023, 2:07pm
I agree, tho I think it's fair to say that the needle has moved in the conversation over the past twenty years. Not there yet, but the kneejerk defend-the-cops discourse isn't as common. And there is serious evidence from pilot projects where cops have been instructed to de-escalate situations, where public support of the cops has improved without "emboldening criminals." I really don't want to sound pollyannaish here, but I do think public conversations are moving in a better direction.
Really? My impression is the exact opposite. Despite scrutiny of some of the worst, most horrific examples of police brutality the policy-level commitment is more pro-cop than ever before. Hell, in liberal-controlled New York, governor Hochul JUST announced she was opposed to any attempts to end qualified immunity. Here in Colorado Dems ran on a law-and-order platform with promises to beef up police budgets and afaik they're doing in it. I've documented on this forum my own city's active work to undermine (quite successfully so far) court ordered police reforms.

The term "defund the police" is underwater across all demographic groups, including African american demographics that used to support the movement. However you want to parcel out the blame, and there's plenty to go around, substantive police reform seems - to me - to be less popular and less likely than at any point in at least the last half decade.
Yes. We're seeing this in action in Wisconsin, too. The 2020 "Defund the Police" Summer has passed and become a dirty word. Our former Lt. Governor Mandela Barnes, who is a fantastic guy, lost his senate race against awful incumbent Ron Johnson and a big part of that (I think) was the "law and order" attack they threw his way. They painted him as a defund the police guy and it hurt him in areas (City of Milwaukee, for instance) where conventional wisdom would indicate it would not have.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by revbob »

Most people are sympathetic to the concept of police being there to "protect and serve". And for a lot of people because they are not personally effected by police brutality they will fall down on the side of the police when the chips are down. I know here some positions were cut and crime has increased. It feels like the cops have taken a sort of passive aggressive approach to some of these incidents. People call the police and are told "sorry we're understaffed, we can only respond to issues of life and death".

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by matedog »

WestwayKid wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 10:59am

The 2020 "Defund the Police" Summer has passed and become a dirty word.
"Defund the Police" was terrible branding. Just awful.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Dr. Medulla »

matedog wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 11:38am
WestwayKid wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 10:59am

The 2020 "Defund the Police" Summer has passed and become a dirty word.
"Defund the Police" was terrible branding. Just awful.
Agreed. It invited misinterpretation, intentional and not. Black Lives Matter also makes it easy for opponents to twist it into *only* Black Lives Matter, instead of its intent of Black Lives Matter, too. And the insane alphabet stew of covering non-conventional gender identities. I support the desire for inclusivity in naming, but LGBTQQIP2SAA (I think that's the current version) suggests more zeal than intent to persuade.
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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by WestwayKid »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 11:52am
matedog wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 11:38am
WestwayKid wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 10:59am

The 2020 "Defund the Police" Summer has passed and become a dirty word.
"Defund the Police" was terrible branding. Just awful.
Agreed. It invited misinterpretation, intentional and not. Black Lives Matter also makes it easy for opponents to twist it into *only* Black Lives Matter, instead of its intent of Black Lives Matter, too. And the insane alphabet stew of covering non-conventional gender identities. I support the desire for inclusivity in naming, but LGBTQQIP2SAA (I think that's the current version) suggests more zeal than intent to persuade.
I think this is definitely in need of a rebrand.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble

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Re: Police Misconduct: Tracked

Post by Flex »

matedog wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 11:38am
WestwayKid wrote:
30 Jan 2023, 10:59am

The 2020 "Defund the Police" Summer has passed and become a dirty word.
"Defund the Police" was terrible branding. Just awful.
I mean, that depends. I think it was weird, bad branding for people who wanted police reform but not abolition, but it's very accurate branding for actual police abolitionists. It's just a really, really unpopular position and it always struck me as totally delusional that a lot of abolitionists (at least ones I knew or followed) acted like it was a broadly popular position that wouldn't require absolutely mind boggling levels of outreach and persuasion.

I don't really understand people who didn't actually want to get rid of police using the term tho. Very counterproductive!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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