Best of the American Invasion

Politics and other such topical creams.

...

Korea
2
13%
Vietnam
9
60%
Afghanistan
3
20%
Iraq
1
7%
 
Total votes: 15

revbob
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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:27pm
Flex wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:13pm
Just like in this poll, Afghanistan is fucked.
It is goddamned eerie how much Afghanistan paralleled in slow motion (until the end) Vietnam. Western arrogance and refusal to understand the land and people it occupied, a corrupt and rotting government, an opposing force that just had to wait out the occupiers, and a rapid collapse once Western power was removed, with similar horrible scenes of people trying to flee. Maybe the next quasi-imperial adventure will go better! :cry:
Despite what most people are saying I don't think anyone saw any different outcome than this. Ive spoken to people who have been there over the years and people on the ground absolutely knew this would happen. Like the wimpy kid who has a friend to scare off the bullies but once he's on his own he's dead meat.

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by revbob »

Heston wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:30pm
You know when you just don't remember making a thread?

That.
You mean Sunday after Saturday nights in the KISS thread?

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by Heston »

revbob wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:33pm
Heston wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:30pm
You know when you just don't remember making a thread?

That.
You mean Sunday after Saturday nights in the KISS thread?
:shifty:
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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revbob wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:27pm
Flex wrote:
16 Aug 2021, 6:13pm
Just like in this poll, Afghanistan is fucked.
It is goddamned eerie how much Afghanistan paralleled in slow motion (until the end) Vietnam. Western arrogance and refusal to understand the land and people it occupied, a corrupt and rotting government, an opposing force that just had to wait out the occupiers, and a rapid collapse once Western power was removed, with similar horrible scenes of people trying to flee. Maybe the next quasi-imperial adventure will go better! :cry:
Despite what most people are saying I don't think anyone saw any different outcome than this. Ive spoken to people who have been there over the years and people on the ground absolutely knew this would happen. Like the wimpy kid who has a friend to scare off the bullies but once he's on his own he's dead meat.
Totally. Unless the US was prepared to occupy it in perpetuity, allocating a shit-ton of money and soldiers, or go full-on eradication of who knows what percent of the population, it was going to go back to the way it was pre Sept 2001. It's kinda funny (grimly so) that the one thing W got right was in the 2000 campaign when he said the US isn't in the business of nation building. Apart from the brief window after WWII, in Japan and Europe, the US has been a remarkably inept imperial power when it comes to nation building.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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we all know this, but absolutely do not believe any of these shitheads who claim that this wasn't the inevitable outcome. i was an idiot kid in high school when the invasion began and i fucking knew.
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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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One comment I saw online is that it's kind of sweet that Republicans have finally found their heart for Muslims and refugees.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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I have a coworker from Afghanistan. He said his family is stuck there and they have no access to their money as the banks aren't giving anyone money. He's in rough shape. He has noted that Americans really knew very little about the country and the culture throughout their time there, which is unsurprising.

I remember taking a cab ride maybe 10 years ago and the drive was from Russia and fought in Afghanistan in the 80s. He said we were never going to win. I didn't doubt him at the time as most people saw this coming. But yeah, a shitty set of choices - abandon the country and people who you've built allegiances with or stay their forever.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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Trump brokered a withdrawal of US troops in February 2020 with a withdrawal date of May 2021. Whether or not he remained in office, someone had to be the fall guy to see it through, so Biden is taking a lot of heat. I even read somewhere the GOP removed all mention of Trump's "deal" from their website last night, they're cutting / running pointing the finger at Biden now.

Bad situation on all angles, the outcome was inevitable, very similar to Viet Nam.

Everything I've been reading indicates the Afghan "government" was so full of corruption that payroll was way behind or nonexistent, food and ammo were often sold on the black market instead of being distributed to the troops, which is why the Afghan troops were so likely to abandon their posts, in some instances it's said they sold their weapons to the Taliban and fled.
I feel very sad and sorry for the citizens of Afghanistan who actually wanted US help and a better government, but IMO it's their fight, we couldn't stay there protecting them forever, as harsh as it may sound, their corruption led to their troops failing, they have some of the blame on their shoulders as well.
God, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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Low Down Low wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 3:07pm
Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
A passage from one of Bob Woodward's Bush books sticks in my mind. One of the dissenters within the administration described their approach to diplomacy as, "Listen, asshole, this is what you're going to do." "Hearts and minds" was always guided by an assumption of cowing the other side, so that the choice was buying in or being killed. I have no idea how or whether the Obama team differed significantly, but it's clear that they failed to build a genuine relationship.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by Low Down Low »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 4:30pm
Low Down Low wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 3:07pm
Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
A passage from one of Bob Woodward's Bush books sticks in my mind. One of the dissenters within the administration described their approach to diplomacy as, "Listen, asshole, this is what you're going to do." "Hearts and minds" was always guided by an assumption of cowing the other side, so that the choice was buying in or being killed. I have no idea how or whether the Obama team differed significantly, but it's clear that they failed to build a genuine relationship.
The old war criminal and GWB poodle Tony Blair had another way of putting it - "reordering the world around us." The middle east as blank canvas, basically, for the west to draw it as it deemed fit. I imagine Johnson had some kind of noble intent when he first used that phrase, but I'm not sure it ever translated to the field where the average soldiers combat strategy is to assume every man, woman and child in the vicinity is a potential hostile target.

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Low Down Low wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 7:06pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 4:30pm
Low Down Low wrote:
17 Aug 2021, 3:07pm
Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
A passage from one of Bob Woodward's Bush books sticks in my mind. One of the dissenters within the administration described their approach to diplomacy as, "Listen, asshole, this is what you're going to do." "Hearts and minds" was always guided by an assumption of cowing the other side, so that the choice was buying in or being killed. I have no idea how or whether the Obama team differed significantly, but it's clear that they failed to build a genuine relationship.
The old war criminal and GWB poodle Tony Blair had another way of putting it - "reordering the world around us." The middle east as blank canvas, basically, for the west to draw it as it deemed fit.
So utterly 19th century. As if the decolonization efforts of the 20th c never happened.
I imagine Johnson had some kind of noble intent when he first used that phrase, but I'm not sure it ever translated to the field where the average soldiers combat strategy is to assume every man, woman and child in the vicinity is a potential hostile target.
Which does make some practical sense—it was the same way in Vietnam—but reveals a fatal (literally!) flaw in the effort.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by Flex »

There's a certain species of liberal (think, for example, that chucklefuck @agraybee on twitter) who is intent on punching left and declaring that people who opposed this war from the start were still wrong to do so but that the "moral calculus" changed at some point. No, you fucking ghouls, people - small cadre crying out in the face of overwhelming sentiment for bloody empire that we were - opposed the war in very large part because they realized that an intractable occupation and/or power void were the certain result of a foolhardy "regime change" war.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

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Imagine taking the stance that those who predicted what would—and wouldn't—happen two decades ago were still wrong somehow … despite never ever being in a decision-making position at any time over those two decades. But that's tribalism for you.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Best of the American Invasion

Post by Low Down Low »

Actually, from what I've seen in the UK anyway, there has been no smug chorus of "i told you so" from the left anti war side, but centrist liberals have invented it regardless because it just irks them beyond belief that some people just seen to have a nasty habit of being on the right side of history more often than not.

Like this doofus, for example.


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