Parenting (...or My Precious Snowflake is Better Than Yours)

[gkbill]

Hello,

One of the current problems with youth sport is the organization by adults. How many kids currently play pick-up soccer, basketball, football, baseball, etc.? In years past, this was the primary sporting activity of kids. Now, it's organized to the extent kids don't think of playing pick-up in the neighborhood (I've actually heard a kid say they can't play soccer because they don't have their water jug). As kids play, they keep score and (usually) desperately want to win - they keep score. However, after the game is over, it's generally "Okay what are we going to do now?" - adults/parents won't let go of the results. Self Determination Theory has been shown to increase intrinsic motivation. A central tenet of Self Determination Theory is autonomy - the kids have some control of the activity. Kids who are intrinsically motivated tend to show greater effort, greater persistence, and greater satisfaction. The loss of free play has multiple other consequences such as conflict resolution - can anyone recall arguments over whether that was a foul playing pick-up basketball? In organized youth sport, there's an adult who will say whether or not it was a foul - kids don't have an opportunity to develop the ability to settle an argument.

I apologize for going on about this but it's a subject I've researched and taught over the years. My years spent playing pick-up basketball and soccer were great fun at the time and as I've aged and learned more, I've come to realize their value.

[Flex]

Hello,

One of the current problems with youth sport is the organization by adults. How many kids currently play pick-up soccer, basketball, football, baseball, etc.? In years past, this was the primary sporting activity of kids. Now, it's organized to the extent kids don't think of playing pick-up in the neighborhood (I've actually heard a kid say they can't play soccer because they don't have their water jug). As kids play, they keep score and (usually) desperately want to win - they keep score. However, after the game is over, it's generally "Okay what are we going to do now?" - adults/parents won't let go of the results. Self Determination Theory has been shown to increase intrinsic motivation. A central tenet of Self Determination Theory is autonomy - the kids have some control of the activity. Kids who are intrinsically motivated tend to show greater effort, greater persistence, and greater satisfaction. The loss of free play has multiple other consequences such as conflict resolution - can anyone recall arguments over whether that was a foul playing pick-up basketball? In organized youth sport, there's an adult who will say whether or not it was a foul - kids don't have an opportunity to develop the ability to settle an argument.

I apologize for going on about this but it's a subject I've researched and taught over the years. My years spent playing pick-up basketball and soccer were great fun at the time and as I've aged and learned more, I've come to realize their value.

None of what you're describing sounds like it helps create compliant corporate workers, the central organizational principle of American society.

[matedog]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/north-ca ... 84198dc5d6

On the one hand, yeah, participation trophies are stupid. Coffee’s for closers. But something to legislate? Back in the day, that’s the kind of shit where Republicans would mock Democrats for stupid instrusion.

I really don’t feel strongly about the matter but I think participation trophies are fine. Nothing wrong with rewarding a kid for putting themselves out there. Also, and most importantly, the participation trophy is never as good as the real one, so it’s not like kids don’t know the winner is rewarded more greatly.

I'm of the view that the reward of participation is internal, not some trinket. In the same way, I was raised where my allowance was not tied to any household responsibilities (e.g., mowing the lawn, taking out the garbage). Being part of the family and contributing to the household were one in the same. I couldn't opt out and just forfeit my allowance that week. My allowance was for being part of the family and so were my chores. It's about making household responsibilities something that transcends the transactional. So participating in sports or anything like that shouldn't be bound up in the expectation of getting a materialn prize at the end. If you win, sure, let's mark that achievement. But just participating shouldn't come attached to getting a reward. You do it because you do it.

Where do you draw the line? What's the difference between a "trinket" and a good job pat on the back or post-game mcdonald's lunch? You are just congratulating them for trying something new or a continued effort. I don't really see an issue with that.

[Flex]

Where do you draw the line? What's the difference between a "trinket" and a good job pat on the back or post-game mcdonald's lunch? You are just congratulating them for trying something new or a continued effort. I don't really see an issue with that.

Reward the kid with a complimentary copy of Tunnel of Love after every game. That seems to strike the right balance.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/north-ca ... 84198dc5d6

On the one hand, yeah, participation trophies are stupid. Coffee’s for closers. But something to legislate? Back in the day, that’s the kind of shit where Republicans would mock Democrats for stupid instrusion.

I really don’t feel strongly about the matter but I think participation trophies are fine. Nothing wrong with rewarding a kid for putting themselves out there. Also, and most importantly, the participation trophy is never as good as the real one, so it’s not like kids don’t know the winner is rewarded more greatly.

I'm of the view that the reward of participation is internal, not some trinket. In the same way, I was raised where my allowance was not tied to any household responsibilities (e.g., mowing the lawn, taking out the garbage). Being part of the family and contributing to the household were one in the same. I couldn't opt out and just forfeit my allowance that week. My allowance was for being part of the family and so were my chores. It's about making household responsibilities something that transcends the transactional. So participating in sports or anything like that shouldn't be bound up in the expectation of getting a materialn prize at the end. If you win, sure, let's mark that achievement. But just participating shouldn't come attached to getting a reward. You do it because you do it.

Where do you draw the line? What's the difference between a "trinket" and a good job pat on the back or post-game mcdonald's lunch? You are just congratulating them for trying something new or a continued effort. I don't really see an issue with that.

A trophy or a ribbon for being a warm body makes little sense to me, especially if the child comes to think the point is to accumulate those things. Verbal positive reinforcement is an obvious thing to do, to let the child know that you're glad or proud that they are trying rather than being a spectator to their own life. Lunch is about nutrition—we're supposed to feed children. The point is to instill in children a desire to be active human beings for reasons other than material reward, to participate for reasons other than getting stuff. If a person comes to associate mere participation with getting stuff, their future participation in any manner of things may come to be conditional on whether they get something tangible for it.

[Dr. Medulla]

Where do you draw the line? What's the difference between a "trinket" and a good job pat on the back or post-game mcdonald's lunch? You are just congratulating them for trying something new or a continued effort. I don't really see an issue with that.

Reward the kid with a complimentary copy of Tunnel of Love after every game. That seems to strike the right balance.

"Man, our kid sure has turned into a slug. Doesn't want to do anything anymore. Maybe we need to try Lucky Town?"

[Flex]

I'll say, it's a little odd to me to be having these discussions at all (I mean, I'm mostly interested as a parent now), since my experiences with youth sport - be it organized or informal - were so intensely negative that it created baggage - around myself, my body, socialization, etc. - that I'm still wrestling with in my late 30s. I'm not sure what halycon time of Sport were supposed to be imagining a return to.

Part of it is that I'm trying make sure I don't project my own basically horrible experiences into my kid, I suppose.

[Dr. Medulla]

Hello,

One of the current problems with youth sport is the organization by adults. How many kids currently play pick-up soccer, basketball, football, baseball, etc.? In years past, this was the primary sporting activity of kids. Now, it's organized to the extent kids don't think of playing pick-up in the neighborhood (I've actually heard a kid say they can't play soccer because they don't have their water jug). As kids play, they keep score and (usually) desperately want to win - they keep score. However, after the game is over, it's generally "Okay what are we going to do now?" - adults/parents won't let go of the results. Self Determination Theory has been shown to increase intrinsic motivation. A central tenet of Self Determination Theory is autonomy - the kids have some control of the activity. Kids who are intrinsically motivated tend to show greater effort, greater persistence, and greater satisfaction. The loss of free play has multiple other consequences such as conflict resolution - can anyone recall arguments over whether that was a foul playing pick-up basketball? In organized youth sport, there's an adult who will say whether or not it was a foul - kids don't have an opportunity to develop the ability to settle an argument.

I apologize for going on about this but it's a subject I've researched and taught over the years. My years spent playing pick-up basketball and soccer were great fun at the time and as I've aged and learned more, I've come to realize their value.

Agreed 100%. Drawing on my childhood memories of sports, I had so much more fun in pick-up games of baseball or football—during summer holidays, kids would bring gloves, etc to the park and hang around waiting for enough people to arrive—than in organized games. The emphasis was fun and being on our own. Part of what turned me off organized sports was that the adult coaches taught me to fear losing. Not so much about how great it was to win, but how much it sucked to lose. It ruined the play aspect of it all.

[Dr. Medulla]

I'll say, it's a little odd to me to be having these discussions at all (I mean, I'm mostly interested as a parent now), since my experiences with youth sport - be it organized or informal - were so intensely negative that it created baggage - around myself, my body, socialization, etc. - that I'm still wrestling with in my late 30s. I'm not sure what halycon time of Sport were supposed to be imagining a return to.

Part of it is that I'm trying make sure I don't project my own basically horrible experiences into my kid, I suppose.

Did you not experience pick-up games, stuff that was mostly spontaneous but always free of adults?

[Flex]

I'll say, it's a little odd to me to be having these discussions at all (I mean, I'm mostly interested as a parent now), since my experiences with youth sport - be it organized or informal - were so intensely negative that it created baggage - around myself, my body, socialization, etc. - that I'm still wrestling with in my late 30s. I'm not sure what halycon time of Sport were supposed to be imagining a return to.

Part of it is that I'm trying make sure I don't project my own basically horrible experiences into my kid, I suppose.

Did you not experience pick-up games, stuff that was mostly spontaneous but always free of adults?

Yeah, they were fine up until about middle school the then then kids started getting real mean and abusive.

[Flex]

I think people here really underrate how insanely cruel kids are, even informally, to other kids they perceive as too unksilled and weak.

[Dr. Medulla]

I'll say, it's a little odd to me to be having these discussions at all (I mean, I'm mostly interested as a parent now), since my experiences with youth sport - be it organized or informal - were so intensely negative that it created baggage - around myself, my body, socialization, etc. - that I'm still wrestling with in my late 30s. I'm not sure what halycon time of Sport were supposed to be imagining a return to.

Part of it is that I'm trying make sure I don't project my own basically horrible experiences into my kid, I suppose.

Did you not experience pick-up games, stuff that was mostly spontaneous but always free of adults?

Yeah, they were fine up until about middle school the then then kids started getting real mean and abusive.

Yeah, that probably meshes with my memory, tho I associate it with those guys who start taking sports seriously, buying into structures and systems and results over enjoyment. I would guess hormones are at work in all that, too.

I think people here really underrate how insanely cruel kids are, even informally, to other kids they perceive as too unksilled and weak.

I don't disagree necessarily. On the playground at school, yeah, bullying was pretty standard. Outside of school, either bullied kids just stayed away from the park or that stuff got suspended. I know I'm making it seem halcyonic here—oh, if only you'd grown up in Shithole in the 70s!—but my memories of pick-up games are almost wholly positive, and I tend to have a grouchy view of my childhood. The only real bad memories I still have are from when people got seriously hurt. In some respects, I think, that stuff informs my anti-authority attitude—we are capable of coming together without dominating authority figures and can be productive and happy and all that.

[gkbill]

I think people here really underrate how insanely cruel kids are, even informally, to other kids they perceive as too unksilled and weak.

Hello,

My experiences playing pick-up games/free play were overall very good. I can understand how someone else may have had dissimilar experiences based on the kids around you. I grew up with a couple of jerks nearby but fortunately the good kids outnumbered them. Overall numbers indicate most youth have positive experiences with sport up through around 15 years old when numbers diminish as kids either choose a favorite sport or float into other activities (school, music, art, etc. - oops, I should probably include drinking/dope).

[Mimi]

I think people here really underrate how insanely cruel kids are, even informally, to other kids they perceive as too unksilled and weak.

Oh, I remember.

[Dr. Medulla]

Somehow we've forgotten the sacred wisdom of the Bad News Bears, who, you should remember, broke training:


(The first BNB film is my favourite baseball movie of all time. Especially because the Yankees in it are assholes.)