This doesn't really explain the rationale. What did he hope to gain?Marky Dread wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 2:59pm1. Yes Joe knew the band couldn't cut the mustard.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 6:52pmTwo questions then:Marky Dread wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 5:42pmBernie gets all the flack. But I sincerely think Joe sabotaged his own record.
1) Consciously?
2) Why would he do that?
I can perhaps appreciate his depression encouraging a loss of purpose and all, but it doesn't seem in character to release something that fans would think is a rip off. As much as he may have been engaging in a self-loathing at some level, I have a harder time believing he'd deliberately fuck over his fans.
2. Because Mick wasn't coming back.
A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
So Joe was basically petty, everyone else be damned? Maybe, but that's a really harsh assessment of the man.Marky Dread wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 2:59pm1. Yes Joe knew the band couldn't cut the mustard.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 6:52pmTwo questions then:Marky Dread wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 5:42pmBernie gets all the flack. But I sincerely think Joe sabotaged his own record.
1) Consciously?
2) Why would he do that?
I can perhaps appreciate his depression encouraging a loss of purpose and all, but it doesn't seem in character to release something that fans would think is a rip off. As much as he may have been engaging in a self-loathing at some level, I have a harder time believing he'd deliberately fuck over his fans.
2. Because Mick wasn't coming back.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Nothing the game was up. Joe telling Johnny Green that the new band were terrible after a show. I can't believe Joe who loved music with a passion and was in love with rock n roll romantism would ever had given those crap sounding synth and electronic drums a go otherwise. Complete sabotage on those songs he had spent so long working up.Kory wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:01pmThis doesn't really explain the rationale. What did he hope to gain?Marky Dread wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 2:59pm1. Yes Joe knew the band couldn't cut the mustard.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 6:52pmTwo questions then:Marky Dread wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 5:42pmBernie gets all the flack. But I sincerely think Joe sabotaged his own record.
1) Consciously?
2) Why would he do that?
I can perhaps appreciate his depression encouraging a loss of purpose and all, but it doesn't seem in character to release something that fans would think is a rip off. As much as he may have been engaging in a self-loathing at some level, I have a harder time believing he'd deliberately fuck over his fans.
2. Because Mick wasn't coming back.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Is it really? I don't think so. Years later Joe said he hoped he hadn't fucked up the other guys too much. I mean Pete who was already a member of The Clash while Mick was still in the band hardly features on Cut the Crap.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:04pmSo Joe was basically petty, everyone else be damned? Maybe, but that's a really harsh assessment of the man.Marky Dread wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 2:59pm1. Yes Joe knew the band couldn't cut the mustard.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 6:52pmTwo questions then:Marky Dread wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 5:42pmBernie gets all the flack. But I sincerely think Joe sabotaged his own record.
1) Consciously?
2) Why would he do that?
I can perhaps appreciate his depression encouraging a loss of purpose and all, but it doesn't seem in character to release something that fans would think is a rip off. As much as he may have been engaging in a self-loathing at some level, I have a harder time believing he'd deliberately fuck over his fans.
2. Because Mick wasn't coming back.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
I think Joe was feeling a bunch of contradictory stuff around that time, and realized he fucked up pretty bad as a leader and colleague after the fact, but no account Ive read suggests to me that in the moment he deliberately tried to sabotage the album. Mark II as a whole, maybe, in some desperate attempt to get out from under Bernie's thumb, but I think that came after the recording of the record.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Yeah, it's the deliberate aspect that I stumble over. He contributed mightily to the mess, but that he actively sought it to be a mess doesn't fit well with what we know about the man, even in that mental state.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Adding those synths and so on doesn't seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to sabotage anything. Unconscious, certainly—even a desparate bid to catch up with the technology of the times, but it doesn't ring true as some kind of sick joke played on the fans in order to torpedo the band's legacy and be done with it.Flex wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:21pmI think Joe was feeling a bunch of contradictory stuff around that time, and realized he fucked up pretty bad as a leader and colleague after the fact, but no account Ive read suggests to me that in the moment he deliberately tried to sabotage the album. Mark II as a whole, maybe, in some desperate attempt to get out from under Bernie's thumb, but I think that came after the recording of the record.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Joe spoke about taking out an ad in the music press. About boycotting the release of CtC and re-recording the whole thing. This didn't happen and he chose to run away to Spain instead.
If Joe felt so strongly about CtC being a mess why didn't he take the re-recording option and restore some faith to the name of The Clash instead of leaving it to be the final hurrah.
If Joe felt so strongly about CtC being a mess why didn't he take the re-recording option and restore some faith to the name of The Clash instead of leaving it to be the final hurrah.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
I saw them live and they were getting it together considering the main songwriter had gone. But CtC is the most spectacular fall from grace of any band I can think of. I'm not saying the songs were bad they weren't but that production is a complete joke. Joe must've heard some if not all of it before it was released. I mean he was there in Munich.Kory wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:25pmAdding those synths and so on doesn't seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to sabotage anything. Unconscious, certainly—even a desparate bid to catch up with the technology of the times, but it doesn't ring true as some kind of sick joke played on the fans in order to torpedo the band's legacy and be done with it.Flex wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:21pmI think Joe was feeling a bunch of contradictory stuff around that time, and realized he fucked up pretty bad as a leader and colleague after the fact, but no account Ive read suggests to me that in the moment he deliberately tried to sabotage the album. Mark II as a whole, maybe, in some desperate attempt to get out from under Bernie's thumb, but I think that came after the recording of the record.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Another couple of things that occur to me. Joe had no problem re-recording Rat Patrol to become Combat Rock. Joe also heard BAD and told Mick it was the biggest pile of crap he had ever heard. Yet people here are saying he wanted to use the new tech.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
From the books and docs and what not, I always thought he put full faith in Bernie's direction for CTC and more or less blindly followed him. I also think he had a bunch of contradictory feelings at the time, but convinced himself of Bernie's approach eventhough he probably knew better. When it failed miserably, it probably confirmed that voice in the back of his head.Kory wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:25pmAdding those synths and so on doesn't seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to sabotage anything. Unconscious, certainly—even a desparate bid to catch up with the technology of the times, but it doesn't ring true as some kind of sick joke played on the fans in order to torpedo the band's legacy and be done with it.Flex wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:21pmI think Joe was feeling a bunch of contradictory stuff around that time, and realized he fucked up pretty bad as a leader and colleague after the fact, but no account Ive read suggests to me that in the moment he deliberately tried to sabotage the album. Mark II as a whole, maybe, in some desperate attempt to get out from under Bernie's thumb, but I think that came after the recording of the record.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
That last part is key for trying to understand the depressed mind. There's an expectation of failure because your head tells you you're a failure, and when it happens it "proves" that that sick part of brain is right. It proved he failed in letting Mick go, that he failed as a leader for the new band, and that he failed at creating a good record for the fans, and he deserved the scorn for the failures. Lather, rinse, repeat.matedog wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 3:45pmFrom the books and docs and what not, I always thought he put full faith in Bernie's direction for CTC and more or less blindly followed him. I also think he had a bunch of contradictory feelings at the time, but convinced himself of Bernie's approach eventhough he probably knew better. When it failed miserably, it probably confirmed that voice in the back of his head.
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Never forget he shouted "Cuba!" when he heard an early mix of "Fingerpoppin."
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
He should've shouted "fuck is this shit!".
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
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Re: A Tasty #eetweek Treat
Fingerpoppin' makes Cool Confusion sound epic.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia