EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Jun 2020, 8:11pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Jun 2020, 8:07pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Jun 2020, 7:41pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Jun 2020, 7:19pm


I've almost finished it. Should be ready for the 75th anniversary of Cut the Crap.
*sigh* 2060 already sucks.
It will contain a free cd.
If that cd is Cut the Crap, you're not sweetening the tea.
It's a special two track cd.

1. How Chairman Mao invented punk.
2. How Chairman Mao stole his best ideas from Bernie.
Okay. Maybe.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by WestwayKid »

Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
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Wolter
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
Same. I probably got into them around the same time and the first time I saw a physical copy of it was 1994.
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Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
"What the Fuck" should've been the album's title.
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:40pm
WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
"What the Fuck" should've been the album's title.
Did literally anyone, anywhere, at any time listening to the first 20 seconds of Dictator for the first time not assume something was horrible wrong, somewhere?
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Dr. Medulla
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 5:31pm
Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:40pm
WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
"What the Fuck" should've been the album's title.
Did literally anyone, anywhere, at any time listening to the first 20 seconds of Dictator for the first time not assume something was horrible wrong, somewhere?
Bruce Gilbert of Wire on the band's maligned album Manscape: You'd think somebody should have listened before deciding to release it.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Wolter
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 5:37pm
Wolter wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 5:31pm
Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:40pm
WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
"What the Fuck" should've been the album's title.
Did literally anyone, anywhere, at any time listening to the first 20 seconds of Dictator for the first time not assume something was horrible wrong, somewhere?
Bruce Gilbert of Wire on the band's maligned album Manscape: You'd think somebody should have listened before deciding to release it.
:lol:

The wildest thing is I think I get what they were going for with Dictator, but it absolutely doesn’t work.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

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Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

Wolter wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 5:31pm
Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:40pm
WestwayKid wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 4:15pm
Getting into the band in the late 80’s...pre internet...Middle America...it took me awhile to be aware that CtC even existed and then awhile longer to find a copy. It was one of the biggest musical disappointments of my life. I had already listened to the rest of their catalog over and over again and I was super pumped to get my hands on something that was new to me...and then very quickly it was WTF!?
"What the Fuck" should've been the album's title.
Did literally anyone, anywhere, at any time listening to the first 20 seconds of Dictator for the first time not assume something was horrible wrong, somewhere?
I saw the shows in Brixton and genuinely thought that even though they missed Mick and Topper (what band wouldn't) they still had something. I heard the "This Is England" single on a BBC radio show called "Round Table" where it was being reviewed and Roger Daltrey was a guest on the panel and after the record finished I remember him saying "that's not The Clash".

Of course I bought it anyway and thought it was OK but a huge step down from what had gone before. Then came the album and I was hoping that the single might just have been a one off with that type of sound. But as soon as the needle hit the groove my heart fucking sank and I haven't been the same since.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

We've undoubtedly discussed this before over the years, but would we be more tolerant, even generous, if this had been released by some unknown band? That is, does the legacy of amazing previous records and status make us more unforgiving? I'm almost certain that I judge it less on its own merits than its historical context. Not saying I'd treat it as good or listenable, but I'd be less contemptuous and derisive if it'd been by some new bunch of electro-punks.
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
We've undoubtedly discussed this before over the years, but would we be more tolerant, even generous, if this had been released by some unknown band? That is, does the legacy of amazing previous records and status make us more unforgiving? I'm almost certain that I judge it less on its own merits than its historical context. Not saying I'd treat it as good or listenable, but I'd be less contemptuous and derisive if it'd been by some new bunch of electro-punks.
I feel like it would be a combo of I wouldn’t have hated it so much on first listen combined with the fact I never would’ve given in the numerous subsequent listens. Part of why it looms so large in the psyche is the band that made it WAS once the Clash. Or at least some were.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

Follow up thought: if, somehow, the “classic” lineup of the Clash made an album as bad as CTC, would we try to pretend it was better than it was? Part of the initial disgust has to include “this isn’t even the REAL Clash!”
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 6:45pm
Follow up thought: if, somehow, the “classic” lineup of the Clash made an album as bad as CTC, would we try to pretend it was better than it was? Part of the initial disgust has to include “this isn’t even the REAL Clash!”
That is the "out" that we give them, tho we have some justification in that Bernie has proudly claimed it as his handiwork. But if CTC had been made by the "proper" Clash, undoubtedly it'd have more defenders, if only to prove that the person is confirmed as a "real fan." I'll bet there are a lot of KISS fans who love that reunion album from the 90s because it'd call into question their fandom if they didn't. Fandom is so much about status and an atrocious album by a great band is a trauma.
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
We've undoubtedly discussed this before over the years, but would we be more tolerant, even generous, if this had been released by some unknown band? That is, does the legacy of amazing previous records and status make us more unforgiving? I'm almost certain that I judge it less on its own merits than its historical context. Not saying I'd treat it as good or listenable, but I'd be less contemptuous and derisive if it'd been by some new bunch of electro-punks.
If it sounded the same as it does then any band that recorded it would deserve their kicking.

Even a young amateur band with an unknown producer or no producer could easily have produced a better sounding record. The production? on CtC is an utter shambles. I wonder at what stage Joe thought hang on a minute these fucking drums don't sound right.

I mean surely there must've been a discussion about who is or isn't going to play on the actual record. I wonder at what stage of recording did Joe decide he had enough and how it sounded before Bernie and whoever mixed the bloody thing. Fuck me I'm getting angry just thinking about it aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrghhh!!!!!!

That Czechoslovak version of This Is England/Where Is England with just Joe/Paul/Pete is bloody great and the drum sound is fantastic.

I hope there are more demos from that period out there. If the album had sounded like that track then I think it would've been fine.
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 7:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
We've undoubtedly discussed this before over the years, but would we be more tolerant, even generous, if this had been released by some unknown band? That is, does the legacy of amazing previous records and status make us more unforgiving? I'm almost certain that I judge it less on its own merits than its historical context. Not saying I'd treat it as good or listenable, but I'd be less contemptuous and derisive if it'd been by some new bunch of electro-punks.
If it sounded the same as it does then any band that recorded it would deserve their kicking.
Aesthetic purist. :shifty:
Even a young amateur band with an unknown producer or no producer could easily have produced a better sounding record. The production? on CtC is an utter shambles. I wonder at what stage Joe thought hang on a minute these fucking drums don't sound right.
And yet, I think you're being overly harsh. By which I mean that at that time, with the evolving technology for samples and "fake" sounds, I could see a bunch of nobodies producing just as much a dog's breakfast. Just kitchen sink that fucker because you can. It speaks very much to Mick's skill given that BAD sounds like it's a kitchen sink approach, but he actually knew what he was doing in arranging things. It's over the top, but sensibly so. Bernie was just throwing everything in there for the sake of noise.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 8:25pm
Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 7:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
We've undoubtedly discussed this before over the years, but would we be more tolerant, even generous, if this had been released by some unknown band? That is, does the legacy of amazing previous records and status make us more unforgiving? I'm almost certain that I judge it less on its own merits than its historical context. Not saying I'd treat it as good or listenable, but I'd be less contemptuous and derisive if it'd been by some new bunch of electro-punks.
If it sounded the same as it does then any band that recorded it would deserve their kicking.
Aesthetic purist. :shifty:
Even a young amateur band with an unknown producer or no producer could easily have produced a better sounding record. The production? on CtC is an utter shambles. I wonder at what stage Joe thought hang on a minute these fucking drums don't sound right.
And yet, I think you're being overly harsh. By which I mean that at that time, with the evolving technology for samples and "fake" sounds, I could see a bunch of nobodies producing just as much a dog's breakfast. Just kitchen sink that fucker because you can. It speaks very much to Mick's skill given that BAD sounds like it's a kitchen sink approach, but he actually knew what he was doing in arranging things. It's over the top, but sensibly so. Bernie was just throwing everything in there for the sake of noise.
The Clash were a rock n roll band. Sure they incorporated loads of new sounds and were brave in trying out different styles. But when it comes to Cut the Crap Bernie was clueless. There is and can never be any excuse for a band as big as The Clash to not have somebody decent in the producers chair. Bernie thought he could out do Mick and fucked everything up.

I argued before that I think Joe sabotaged this record and you said I was being harsh as you felt Joe wasn't in a good place. But he sabotaged it by giving Bernie the reins.

It's the most shambolic production I have ever heard on any record then or since. It's beyond bizarre. I'm not kidding when I say a deaf man could've done a better job. There is no saving grace for the production of that record. I said earlier that the only track that just about works with those drums is "Are You Red.. Y" and that is just by a fluke. Bernie even fucked about with the songs title.

Mick's production on BADs early records is genius and ground breaking. The mix of samples and beats with Mick's brilliant guitar lines and some great lyrics work to full effect.
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