EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Clash clash clash. ¡VIVAN LOS NORTEAMERICANOS DEL IMCT Y LAS BRIGADAS DEL CADILLAC NUEVO!
matedog
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by matedog »

Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:48am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
17 Jun 2020, 8:47pm
I argued before that I think Joe sabotaged this record and you said I was being harsh as you felt Joe wasn't in a good place. But he sabotaged it by giving Bernie the reins.
The disagreement might be over how we interpret sabotage. I don't believe Joe handed things over to Bernie believing or hoping that BR would run it through his large intestine. I can't believe that Joe would be that contemptuous of the fans or the reputation of the band to consciously seek a wretched, band-destroying record. Unconsciously, tho, perhaps, as a way of punishing himself and/or looking for a way out. Or perhaps his confidence and vision was so lost that he trusted the person who claimed he had that vision, even if he should have known Bernie didn't know what he was doing. So of course Joe bears responsibility for the mess, but I regard it as indirect—a step or two removed—than direct.
Yes I feel I want to accept this from the heart. My head says what the heck though.

Clash producers:
Mickey Foote
The Clash
Sandy Pearlman
Bill Price
Glyn Johns
Bernie Rhodes

Intentional sabotage probably not in the way Joe would crap on the fans. But before the fans get to hear something the band have to record the thing. In this case the band did not record the album. Remember these were the guys that Joe had spent the last couple of years with knocking up the songs and getting them into shape. Then they don't get to play on them. I want to know if Joe was there when the decision was made to not use Pete Howard and go with those bloody synth drums etc.
It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:48am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29am


The disagreement might be over how we interpret sabotage. I don't believe Joe handed things over to Bernie believing or hoping that BR would run it through his large intestine. I can't believe that Joe would be that contemptuous of the fans or the reputation of the band to consciously seek a wretched, band-destroying record. Unconsciously, tho, perhaps, as a way of punishing himself and/or looking for a way out. Or perhaps his confidence and vision was so lost that he trusted the person who claimed he had that vision, even if he should have known Bernie didn't know what he was doing. So of course Joe bears responsibility for the mess, but I regard it as indirect—a step or two removed—than direct.
Yes I feel I want to accept this from the heart. My head says what the heck though.

Clash producers:
Mickey Foote
The Clash
Sandy Pearlman
Bill Price
Glyn Johns
Bernie Rhodes

Intentional sabotage probably not in the way Joe would crap on the fans. But before the fans get to hear something the band have to record the thing. In this case the band did not record the album. Remember these were the guys that Joe had spent the last couple of years with knocking up the songs and getting them into shape. Then they don't get to play on them. I want to know if Joe was there when the decision was made to not use Pete Howard and go with those bloody synth drums etc.
It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
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JoseUnidos
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by JoseUnidos »

Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:48am


Yes I feel I want to accept this from the heart. My head says what the heck though.

Clash producers:
Mickey Foote
The Clash
Sandy Pearlman
Bill Price
Glyn Johns
Bernie Rhodes

Intentional sabotage probably not in the way Joe would crap on the fans. But before the fans get to hear something the band have to record the thing. In this case the band did not record the album. Remember these were the guys that Joe had spent the last couple of years with knocking up the songs and getting them into shape. Then they don't get to play on them. I want to know if Joe was there when the decision was made to not use Pete Howard and go with those bloody synth drums etc.
It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
In space no one can hear you clash!
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101Walterton
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by 101Walterton »

JoseUnidos wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 11:49pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am


It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
Yep and probably thought it sounded like a lot of the shit that was in the charts at that that time.

Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

JoseUnidos wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 11:49pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am


It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
Well they had already released "This Is England". And that charted at number 24 so I guess it was business as usual.
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matedog
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by matedog »

Marky Dread wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 5:02am
JoseUnidos wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 11:49pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm


According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
Well they had already released "This Is England". And that charted at number 24 so I guess it was business as usual.
Plus three years since their breakthrough hit. They were probably desperate for anything at this point.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Heston
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Heston »

matedog wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 9:58am
Marky Dread wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 5:02am
JoseUnidos wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 11:49pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm

I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
Well they had already released "This Is England". And that charted at number 24 so I guess it was business as usual.
Plus three years since their breakthrough hit. They were probably desperate for anything at this point.
I'm still surprised no one at a company like CBS said "hold on boys, this sounds like it was mixed by a gorilla with boxing gloves on."
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Wolter »

Heston wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 11:39am
matedog wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 9:58am
Marky Dread wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 5:02am
JoseUnidos wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 11:49pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm


I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
I've often wondered why the record company agreed to release it. Didn't anyone listen to it?
Well they had already released "This Is England". And that charted at number 24 so I guess it was business as usual.
Plus three years since their breakthrough hit. They were probably desperate for anything at this point.
I'm still surprised no one at a company like CBS said "hold on boys, this sounds like it was mixed by a gorilla with boxing gloves on."
This is the same company that thought Bankrobber sounded like Bowie played backwards, right?
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 11:39am
I'm still surprised no one at a company like CBS said "hold on boys, this sounds like it was mixed by a gorilla with boxing gloves on."
Record companies were not well-staffed with people who knew how to market bands like the Clash. If CTC sounded like garbage—ah, but futuristic garbage!—those in charge were just as likely to think that that's what those crazy kids are into these days. The first, middle, and last concern of a record company is about how to market a record or an artist, not whether they're "good." If someone figured CTC could be marketed as a "punk" record, there you go, that's it.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

matedog
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by matedog »

Didn't music kinda sound like this in 1985 too? TIBAD is stylistically similar just much more competently executed. As Doc noted, I doubt CBS had any idea what to do with the band. Combat Rock was probably not something anyone expected to be a big hit, so they probably thought the same with CTC.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Heston
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Heston »

matedog wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 1:36pm
Didn't music kinda sound like this in 1985 too? TIBAD is stylistically similar just much more competently executed. As Doc noted, I doubt CBS had any idea what to do with the band. Combat Rock was probably not something anyone expected to be a big hit, so they probably thought the same with CTC.
It's more the mix than the production that I thought someone would have caught. Vocals and instruments just totally disappear at times.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

matedog
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by matedog »

Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:48am


Yes I feel I want to accept this from the heart. My head says what the heck though.

Clash producers:
Mickey Foote
The Clash
Sandy Pearlman
Bill Price
Glyn Johns
Bernie Rhodes

Intentional sabotage probably not in the way Joe would crap on the fans. But before the fans get to hear something the band have to record the thing. In this case the band did not record the album. Remember these were the guys that Joe had spent the last couple of years with knocking up the songs and getting them into shape. Then they don't get to play on them. I want to know if Joe was there when the decision was made to not use Pete Howard and go with those bloody synth drums etc.
It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
Skimming the book, there is extensive discussions starting around page 239, mostly from Fayne, basically saying that Bernie was in charge (and to a certain extent Kosmo?), he dictated the use of the drum machine (to be modern). The speculation in the book (including a quote from Vince) was that taking the reins was born out of competition with Malcolm McLaren and his recent Buffalo Gals and Double Dutch hits. I'll have to read a bit more.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Marky Dread
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Marky Dread »

matedog wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 2:00pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 7:49pm
matedog wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:29pm
Marky Dread wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 6:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 8:29am


It all seems irrational, doesn't it? That's why I resist more rational explanations. These were choices or deferrals of someone not thinking rationally.
According to Wikipedia their page claims it was Joe's suggestion to use synth drums to compete with TIBAD.
I'll have to dust off Ralph's book, that probably covers this topic most definitively.
I've got it but I can't remember that being mentioned.
Skimming the book, there is extensive discussions starting around page 239, mostly from Fayne, basically saying that Bernie was in charge (and to a certain extent Kosmo?), he dictated the use of the drum machine (to be modern). The speculation in the book (including a quote from Vince) was that taking the reins was born out of competition with Malcolm McLaren and his recent Buffalo Gals and Double Dutch hits. I'll have to read a bit more.
Yeah I've heard the Malcolm/Bernie things many times. Joe himself has said this. If Bernie had dictated the use of the drum machine I just can't believe that Joe stood by as Pete was airbrushed aside.
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101Walterton
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by 101Walterton »

matedog wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 1:36pm
Didn't music kinda sound like this in 1985 too? TIBAD is stylistically similar just much more competently executed. As Doc noted, I doubt CBS had any idea what to do with the band. Combat Rock was probably not something anyone expected to be a big hit, so they probably thought the same with CTC.
Exactly, as I said above.

Inder
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Re: EET week is on us, rejoice or repent

Post by Inder »

I was listening to some crap earlier and wonder how much/if any bass on that is actually keyboard.

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