UDA Letter

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Low Down Low
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Low Down Low »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
29 Nov 2020, 1:04am
You gotta wonder how popular the NME was amongst loyalist paramilitaries.
I'm sure they had younger fans in their ranks, too, like any organized entity does -- it's just, "that other thing" they were about politically came before everything else, including the music, unfortunately.
Yeah, i love the song but always found it curious the undertones suddenly came out with this pretty direct political message, given how doggedly they'd avoided the whole troubles situation previously. I think it was Damien O'Neill who wore the black armband on top of the pops which was a quite provocative statement to make, though i don't remember if it really registered at the time. They definitely suffered some backlash for it back home at least.
I can shed a bit of light there, as I did a story about them, too. Both Damian and John said that It's Gonna Happen reflected a feeling within the the band that it was time to acknowledge that they'd grown up a bit -- which made the song feel like a natural step, one that also reflected their growth as musicians and songwriters. They were keen to move on from the slam-bang hookiness of the earlier era, where they did avoid anything political-oriented. Both said that they never cared for Stiff Little Fingers, whom they saw as a more contrived take on the situation. I remember Damian telling me, "They always promoted The Troubles, whereas, we always promoted the music."

Ironically, It's Gonna Happen marked the peak, at least of terms in their chart performance -- whereas, the next single (Julie Ocean) was a flop, and as they've all stated, signaling an era where everything was about to turn south for them, with the Undertones being no more for a good 16 years.

Though it's interesting to see that the O'Neills' next band, That Petrol Emotion, was everything that the Undertones hadn't been -- more abrasive and more intense, with a decided emphasis on highly-charged commentary. (Which reminds me of a fun fact: Damian turned down offer to join Dexy's Midnight Runners, so he could join TPE. The mind boggles, as they say. :mrgreen:)
Interesting stuff ralph. From memory, was Damien the one who was the huge Dexys fan? I know one of them was, interesting he'd turn the chance down if so. I liked TPE, deserved a wider audience i thought.

The conflict was a pretty torid time for artists, in that however you chose to express yourself, or not, at least one side would find fault with you, if not both. Seamus Heaney had a memorable phrase - "whatever you say, say nothing - which captured the dilemma. Heaney, Van Morrison, the Undertones, they all got it at various stages, called cowards for not addressing the troubles in their work. The Fingers had their own way, but were careful not to favour one side. It's no accident that in the last 5 or so years, a glut of literature has started to be published dealing with the conflict, these writers have the benefit of distance to explore their themes. The guys back then didn't.

As for the relationship between the Fingers and Undertones, was always fascinated by that. Can't remember if i read it or saw it in a doc, but there's an incident early on where Jake Burns enters the Undertones dressing room after a gig and one of the band is hostile towards him. But i don't think that attitude was shared across the whole band, there was mostly mutual respect between them and acknowledgement they just had different methods and you could argue the Undertones songs about teenage angst were, in their way, as much about the troubles as the Fingers material.

Anyway...was a Fingers fan myself but they were two phenomenal bands. Always interesting how punk so permeated the north in the 70s while barely making a ripple down south. There was the Rats but they buggered off to London at first available opportunity.

matedog
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by matedog »

AudioAmmunition wrote:
28 Nov 2020, 9:35am
Just found the relevant section in Johnny Green's book. The band received the letter via the NME whilst they were in the studio recording London Calling, so summer 79.

'Dear NME... if he sets foot on the free soil of loyal Ulster the scum Strummer will be shot dead and left like a rat in the gutter'

It was signed 'Red Hand Commando'

They called a guy from the security services to Wessex who confirmed 'these guys don't make idle threats'.

They looked into various ways of getting Joe in and out of the gig safely (helicopter etc) but eventually reluctantly agreed the only thing was to pull the gig.
My dates were pulled from Route 19 Revisited, so that checks out with Johnny Green's book.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Chairman Ralph
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Chairman Ralph »

Interesting stuff ralph. From memory, was Damien the one who was the huge Dexys fan? I know one of them was, interesting he'd turn the chance down if so. I liked TPE, deserved a wider audience i thought.

The conflict was a pretty torid time for artists, in that however you chose to express yourself, or not, at least one side would find fault with you, if not both. Seamus Heaney had a memorable phrase - "whatever you say, say nothing - which captured the dilemma. Heaney, Van Morrison, the Undertones, they all got it at various stages, called cowards for not addressing the troubles in their work. The Fingers had their own way, but were careful not to favour one side. It's no accident that in the last 5 or so years, a glut of literature has started to be published dealing with the conflict, these writers have the benefit of distance to explore their themes. The guys back then didn't.

As for the relationship between the Fingers and Undertones, was always fascinated by that. Can't remember if i read it or saw it in a doc, but there's an incident early on where Jake Burns enters the Undertones dressing room after a gig and one of the band is hostile towards him. But i don't think that attitude was shared across the whole band, there was mostly mutual respect between them and acknowledgement they just had different methods and you could argue the Undertones songs about teenage angst were, in their way, as much about the troubles as the Fingers material.

Anyway...was a Fingers fan myself but they were two phenomenal bands. Always interesting how punk so permeated the north in the 70s while barely making a ripple down south. There was the Rats but they buggered off to London at first available opportunity.
Thanks, LDL! That story ran in DISCoveries, late '99, early '00 -- more or less on the heels of their reunion, which made for ideal timing, to put it mildly.

But it was interesting to get the guys' perspective, as they still were working through that situation -- they're all quoted in there, except Feargal, of course. As Andy Ferguson, their manager and "sixth Undertone" told me, at the time: "He's only bothered when I send him a check." :mrgreen:

As far as the Damian-Dexy's connection, I think this interview sheds a bit more light on the subject:
https://writewyattuk.com/2014/11/14/goi ... an-oneill/

Interesting that he says he wasn't actually offered the chance, but still thinks the world of 'em. I'd really like to see the play that he and John wrote songs for -- sounds really interesting, but doesn't seem to have been published anywhere, unfortunately. Anyway, you can see that he's done quite a lot of stuff, with and without the Undertones, like TPE. They were one of those bands that you always read about -- if great press guaranteed sales, they'd have been at the top of the heap, something that couldn't happen during the high gloss '80s, of course.

Yeah, I agree, it's no accident that people are only now publishing stuff, and trying to come to grips with the conflict in Northern Ireland. As you say, having the benefit of distance has a lot to do with that, something that was obviously unavailable back then. That being said, I'm not sure I'd want to hear from Van The Man lately, given his head first adoption of the anti-lockdown crusade -- which is definitely an equally sensitive subject here in Michigan, given the whack jobs caught plotting to kidnap and kill our Governor.

You're right about the Fingers/Undertones relationship -- definitely a complex one, but also one that showcased two sides of the same coin, in terms of their subject matter, and how they chose to tackle it. Both also ended up going down parallel paths in their original incarnations, of having a great run of early success, only to find it difficult or impossible to match during their later years, when the scene that gave birth to them was long gone, and the fans from that time appeared to have moved on to something else.

I always loved them both, so for me, it was never a case of either/or -- as you say, coming from different directions, but in many ways, not as far apart from each other as it might appear, on first glance. The SLF/Avengers pairing was actually one of the last live shows I've seen, before the COVID bomb dropped -- you can see it here, on my page (just scroll down a bit, and you'll find it):
https://www.chairmanralph.com/communiques/

And yeah, Northern Ireland has always had plenty of great bands, like Ash, whom I saw when they were just starting out, way back in '95 -- plus lots of first- and second-generation bands that never got a look-in from the greater public (like the Defects, the Moondogs, the Outcasts, and many more). I like the Touts, too, who come from Derry, as well -- what do you think of them?

Not sure why punk never quite caught on in the South -- but I'd say, without places to play, someone to pay attention, or someone behind the curtain (so to speak) to support it, it's pretty difficult to pull off. Every scene that I've observed, or taken part in, seems to need at least one of those three ingredients, if not all of 'em, so maybe that's what happened there.

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Re: UDA Letter

Post by ClashCityHammer. »

I saw SLF cover Teenage Kicks at Manchester Apollo once, dedicating it to "one of our favourite bands" so it obviously didn't work both ways. You couldn't really dislike the Undertones though.

Low Down Low
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Low Down Low »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
29 Nov 2020, 3:47pm
Interesting stuff ralph. From memory, was Damien the one who was the huge Dexys fan? I know one of them was, interesting he'd turn the chance down if so. I liked TPE, deserved a wider audience i thought.

The conflict was a pretty torid time for artists, in that however you chose to express yourself, or not, at least one side would find fault with you, if not both. Seamus Heaney had a memorable phrase - "whatever you say, say nothing - which captured the dilemma. Heaney, Van Morrison, the Undertones, they all got it at various stages, called cowards for not addressing the troubles in their work. The Fingers had their own way, but were careful not to favour one side. It's no accident that in the last 5 or so years, a glut of literature has started to be published dealing with the conflict, these writers have the benefit of distance to explore their themes. The guys back then didn't.

As for the relationship between the Fingers and Undertones, was always fascinated by that. Can't remember if i read it or saw it in a doc, but there's an incident early on where Jake Burns enters the Undertones dressing room after a gig and one of the band is hostile towards him. But i don't think that attitude was shared across the whole band, there was mostly mutual respect between them and acknowledgement they just had different methods and you could argue the Undertones songs about teenage angst were, in their way, as much about the troubles as the Fingers material.

Anyway...was a Fingers fan myself but they were two phenomenal bands. Always interesting how punk so permeated the north in the 70s while barely making a ripple down south. There was the Rats but they buggered off to London at first available opportunity.
Thanks, LDL! That story ran in DISCoveries, late '99, early '00 -- more or less on the heels of their reunion, which made for ideal timing, to put it mildly.

But it was interesting to get the guys' perspective, as they still were working through that situation -- they're all quoted in there, except Feargal, of course. As Andy Ferguson, their manager and "sixth Undertone" told me, at the time: "He's only bothered when I send him a check." :mrgreen:

As far as the Damian-Dexy's connection, I think this interview sheds a bit more light on the subject:
https://writewyattuk.com/2014/11/14/goi ... an-oneill/

Interesting that he says he wasn't actually offered the chance, but still thinks the world of 'em. I'd really like to see the play that he and John wrote songs for -- sounds really interesting, but doesn't seem to have been published anywhere, unfortunately. Anyway, you can see that he's done quite a lot of stuff, with and without the Undertones, like TPE. They were one of those bands that you always read about -- if great press guaranteed sales, they'd have been at the top of the heap, something that couldn't happen during the high gloss '80s, of course.

Yeah, I agree, it's no accident that people are only now publishing stuff, and trying to come to grips with the conflict in Northern Ireland. As you say, having the benefit of distance has a lot to do with that, something that was obviously unavailable back then. That being said, I'm not sure I'd want to hear from Van The Man lately, given his head first adoption of the anti-lockdown crusade -- which is definitely an equally sensitive subject here in Michigan, given the whack jobs caught plotting to kidnap and kill our Governor.

You're right about the Fingers/Undertones relationship -- definitely a complex one, but also one that showcased two sides of the same coin, in terms of their subject matter, and how they chose to tackle it. Both also ended up going down parallel paths in their original incarnations, of having a great run of early success, only to find it difficult or impossible to match during their later years, when the scene that gave birth to them was long gone, and the fans from that time appeared to have moved on to something else.

I always loved them both, so for me, it was never a case of either/or -- as you say, coming from different directions, but in many ways, not as far apart from each other as it might appear, on first glance. The SLF/Avengers pairing was actually one of the last live shows I've seen, before the COVID bomb dropped -- you can see it here, on my page (just scroll down a bit, and you'll find it):
https://www.chairmanralph.com/communiques/

And yeah, Northern Ireland has always had plenty of great bands, like Ash, whom I saw when they were just starting out, way back in '95 -- plus lots of first- and second-generation bands that never got a look-in from the greater public (like the Defects, the Moondogs, the Outcasts, and many more). I like the Touts, too, who come from Derry, as well -- what do you think of them?

Not sure why punk never quite caught on in the South -- but I'd say, without places to play, someone to pay attention, or someone behind the curtain (so to speak) to support it, it's pretty difficult to pull off. Every scene that I've observed, or taken part in, seems to need at least one of those three ingredients, if not all of 'em, so maybe that's what happened there.
Just got round to reading that interview, very entertaining and informative. I'm sure i read elsewhere from Damian that Dexys were a huge influence in developing the sound for Positive Touch so no higher commendation is required. He's spot on regarding Don't Stand Me Down, i consider it a work of true artistic genius.

Ash were a really good band too. The radio show i listen to at nights is big on both the Touts and Fontaines DC. Of the two, i like the Touts more, probably wouldn't be buying all their material as it's not type of music i tend to listen to these days - too accepting of old fogeydom perhaps - but would love to catch them live, great sense of energy about them.

Being from the south, i always recognised that the elements for a full blown punk scene weren't here in the late 70s. There was a scene but very underground. Going to see the clash in 84 was first time i witnessed a mass gathering of punks but they were the most expensively assembled bunch you would see, and far too clean and coiffed to be truly authentic. We were just 5-6 years behind the UK mainstream i think. Without the troubles, i think the north would have been even further behind.

And correct about Van, i'll never stop loving the music but he makes it pretty difficult not to actively dislike him as a person. Have defended him lots of times in the past, this time he can fuck right off!

Low Down Low
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Low Down Low »

ClashCityHammer. wrote:
04 Dec 2020, 9:28am
I saw SLF cover Teenage Kicks at Manchester Apollo once, dedicating it to "one of our favourite bands" so it obviously didn't work both ways. You couldn't really dislike the Undertones though.
The Undertones wrote Whizz Kids supposedly about SLF and has to be said it's a not very flattering portrait. I think the problem was the Undertones felt they were being pigeonholed by the UK media as a troubles band, with all the stereotypes and cliches that followed, and wanted to break out of that box and forge their own path. They thought the Fingers were a bit contrived in contrast and they weren't alone in that. Can see why it would lead to serious tension as the whole situation there escalated.

Chairman Ralph
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Chairman Ralph »

The Undertones wrote Whizz Kids supposedly about SLF and has to be said it's a not very flattering portrait. I think the problem was the Undertones felt they were being pigeonholed by the UK media as a troubles band, with all the stereotypes and cliches that followed, and wanted to break out of that box and forge their own path. They thought the Fingers were a bit contrived in contrast and they weren't alone in that. Can see why it would lead to serious tension as the whole situation there escalated.
That's something new for me, I'd never heard or read that anywhere! Though I think the lyrics ("So now you've reached the top/Sweet success is all you've got/Well, holidays don't last long/Enjoy it now before it's gone") could well be about any band that's gotten too big for its boots.

Going back to my interviews, I do remember Damian saying something like, "They (SLF) always promoted the Troubles, whereas, we always promoted the music," in explaining what he saw as the difference between them.

Though here's an extensive interview with John, where he really lays it out quite well:
https://themusic.com.au/features/the-un ... /27-06-17/

One of the best discussions of that subject that I've seen, anyway.
Ash were a really good band too. The radio show i listen to at nights is big on both the Touts and Fontaines DC. Of the two, i like the Touts more, probably wouldn't be buying all their material as it's not type of music i tend to listen to these days - too accepting of old fogeydom perhaps - but would love to catch them live, great sense of energy about them.

Being from the south, i always recognised that the elements for a full blown punk scene weren't here in the late 70s. There was a scene but very underground. Going to see the clash in 84 was first time i witnessed a mass gathering of punks but they were the most expensively assembled bunch you would see, and far too clean and coiffed to be truly authentic. We were just 5-6 years behind the UK mainstream i think. Without the troubles, i think the north would have been even further behind.
Well, yeah, I imagine the whole "but they're making noise amid all this chaos" angle proved a natural hook for the press to pursue at the time, didn't it? Otherwise, they might not have shown any interest. Or as much interest, I guess.

I definitely plan to get my hands on the Touts stuff, one way or another. Funnily enough, the first time I heard of them was during the whole Brexit mess -- there was an article in the Guardian, I think, talking about the whole Irish angle, and they were quoted in there at length. Funny how that works, isn't it?

I've seen similar comments about that Clash gig, too, elsewhere -- too bad, as it sounds like a corker, even though the recording is really crappy. (Doesn't stop me from listening to it, anyway, from time to time -- now that's the mark of a true believer, eh?) If I recall, the Defects were the openers, but split up right after that gig, didn't they?

I always assumed that there was a scene down South, though I'm curious, have they ever done any comps? Seems to me if can do '60s garage punk from Montana (!), as I saw once reviewed in Ugly Things, they can do just about anything else, I suppose.
And correct about Van, i'll never stop loving the music but he makes it pretty difficult not to actively dislike him as a person. Have defended him lots of times in the past, this time he can fuck right off!
For sure, though it seems like he's been grumping and grousing a lot more since the mid-'80s -- which he seems to have turned into a sub-trend of his music. I'm thinking of stuff like Thanks For The Information, in particular, which appeared to kick it all off. The sad thing is that the music is pretty good, as usual, with him -- but he loses me, the minute he opens his mouth. I saw a discussion of this whole issue on FB, and there's a comment that sums it up: "He was always a nut. Now he's just an old nut."

Ah, well, back to the proverbial salt mines, though today's been pretty low-key -- I gave a talk (vitually) on Harriet Beecher Stowe, which is the highlight of my day, and I guess I'll go back to whatever work I've been doing on the site.

Oh, yeah, and here's another snapshot of what us fine young authors are up to these days: https://www.amazon.com/My-Life-As-Vagra ... B08HJ491Z5...
Just got round to reading that interview, very entertaining and informative. I'm sure i read elsewhere from Damian that Dexys were a huge influence in developing the sound for Positive Touch so no higher commendation is required. He's spot on regarding Don't Stand Me Down, i consider it a work of true artistic genius.
That album seems huge to people, doesn't it? I think I remember seeing a feature about it in Uncut a few years back, so that's one sign of the ongoing interest. Though it came out around the same time as CTC, didn't it? That must have been really hard for Bernie Rhodes to take, watching his two biggest bands falling down the chute, even though he did a lot to bring those particular events about. Ah, well.

Low Down Low
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Re: UDA Letter

Post by Low Down Low »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
06 Dec 2020, 10:28pm
The Undertones wrote Whizz Kids supposedly about SLF and has to be said it's a not very flattering portrait. I think the problem was the Undertones felt they were being pigeonholed by the UK media as a troubles band, with all the stereotypes and cliches that followed, and wanted to break out of that box and forge their own path. They thought the Fingers were a bit contrived in contrast and they weren't alone in that. Can see why it would lead to serious tension as the whole situation there escalated.
That's something new for me, I'd never heard or read that anywhere! Though I think the lyrics ("So now you've reached the top/Sweet success is all you've got/Well, holidays don't last long/Enjoy it now before it's gone") could well be about any band that's gotten too big for its boots.

Going back to my interviews, I do remember Damian saying something like, "They (SLF) always promoted the Troubles, whereas, we always promoted the music," in explaining what he saw as the difference between them.

Though here's an extensive interview with John, where he really lays it out quite well:
https://themusic.com.au/features/the-un ... /27-06-17/

One of the best discussions of that subject that I've seen, anyway.
Ash were a really good band too. The radio show i listen to at nights is big on both the Touts and Fontaines DC. Of the two, i like the Touts more, probably wouldn't be buying all their material as it's not type of music i tend to listen to these days - too accepting of old fogeydom perhaps - but would love to catch them live, great sense of energy about them.

Being from the south, i always recognised that the elements for a full blown punk scene weren't here in the late 70s. There was a scene but very underground. Going to see the clash in 84 was first time i witnessed a mass gathering of punks but they were the most expensively assembled bunch you would see, and far too clean and coiffed to be truly authentic. We were just 5-6 years behind the UK mainstream i think. Without the troubles, i think the north would have been even further behind.
Well, yeah, I imagine the whole "but they're making noise amid all this chaos" angle proved a natural hook for the press to pursue at the time, didn't it? Otherwise, they might not have shown any interest. Or as much interest, I guess.

I definitely plan to get my hands on the Touts stuff, one way or another. Funnily enough, the first time I heard of them was during the whole Brexit mess -- there was an article in the Guardian, I think, talking about the whole Irish angle, and they were quoted in there at length. Funny how that works, isn't it?

I've seen similar comments about that Clash gig, too, elsewhere -- too bad, as it sounds like a corker, even though the recording is really crappy. (Doesn't stop me from listening to it, anyway, from time to time -- now that's the mark of a true believer, eh?) If I recall, the Defects were the openers, but split up right after that gig, didn't they?

I always assumed that there was a scene down South, though I'm curious, have they ever done any comps? Seems to me if can do '60s garage punk from Montana (!), as I saw once reviewed in Ugly Things, they can do just about anything else, I suppose.
And correct about Van, i'll never stop loving the music but he makes it pretty difficult not to actively dislike him as a person. Have defended him lots of times in the past, this time he can fuck right off!
For sure, though it seems like he's been grumping and grousing a lot more since the mid-'80s -- which he seems to have turned into a sub-trend of his music. I'm thinking of stuff like Thanks For The Information, in particular, which appeared to kick it all off. The sad thing is that the music is pretty good, as usual, with him -- but he loses me, the minute he opens his mouth. I saw a discussion of this whole issue on FB, and there's a comment that sums it up: "He was always a nut. Now he's just an old nut."

Ah, well, back to the proverbial salt mines, though today's been pretty low-key -- I gave a talk (vitually) on Harriet Beecher Stowe, which is the highlight of my day, and I guess I'll go back to whatever work I've been doing on the site.

Oh, yeah, and here's another snapshot of what us fine young authors are up to these days: https://www.amazon.com/My-Life-As-Vagra ... B08HJ491Z5...
Just got round to reading that interview, very entertaining and informative. I'm sure i read elsewhere from Damian that Dexys were a huge influence in developing the sound for Positive Touch so no higher commendation is required. He's spot on regarding Don't Stand Me Down, i consider it a work of true artistic genius.
That album seems huge to people, doesn't it? I think I remember seeing a feature about it in Uncut a few years back, so that's one sign of the ongoing interest. Though it came out around the same time as CTC, didn't it? That must have been really hard for Bernie Rhodes to take, watching his two biggest bands falling down the chute, even though he did a lot to bring those particular events about. Ah, well.
I think its always been assumed Whizz Kids was directed towards SLF but you're correct it's not actually spelled out so you never know. What John says in that interview about people in the band having different ideals and that they were Catholics living in Derry is very pertinent. That made it much more difficult for them to write troubles music. SLF found a way around it but it helped that they moved to london quite early on. And all these guys were pretty much teenagers at the time so i don't really judge them on any of it, just find it interesting the tensions they were all encountering and their choices in dealing with them.

Don't know of any actual comps, the bands i remember from 70s are Radiators From Space, probably the first big punk band, the Atrix, the Vipers, Virgin Prunes. Big Self were a band i first saw supporting U2, but they were from belfast i think. I thought they and the Atrix could have been bigger.

The Clash played two nights in dublin, i bunked school and set off on my own for the second night. On the way i read a pretty negative review of the opening night in the paper, sound problems one of the main gripes. Think that's the main tape in circulation, where joe stops white riot to implore the audience to beat the crap out of the next guy to spit - see what i mean about irish punks, they still thought it was cool to gob at musicians in 1984!! My memories of the second night are all positive anyway, good show and luckily i bumped into someone i knew who offered me a couch for the night as dublin in march isn't a place you want to be walking the streets all might!

Remember that uncut dexys piece, pretty sure i still have a copy of it somewhere, Lost Classic was the banner headline or along those lines. Think it was around same time as CtC alright, remember listening to both around winter 85, two classics in their own different ways!

I am going to get that book, sounds interesting and would buy it blind on the basis of the title alone!!

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