When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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RockNRollWhore
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When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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Was this a gradual sort of undoing, or was there something that triggered it? I've always theorized in my head that it was 90% gaslighting by Bernie. Keep in mind he came back into fold mid 81" and they broke up a year and some change later in 83'. I've recently read however that Joe threatened to quit unless Bernie was rehired. Why did he reach this ultimatum? Was it the financial disaster of Sandanista? A lot of that was self inflicted in the sense of selling 3 pieces of vinyl at a discounted price, but maybe he didn't trust the band's internal instincts anymore?

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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In a way i'd say that tension always existed, right from the start. It's simply part of what made them great as a songwriting team, the way they complemented each other and brought different things to the table. I'm not sure I'd date it but i seem to recall when mick started to question whether White Riot should still be part of the set list, maybe that was an early indication they were ever so gradually veering off in separate directions.

Edit: just to agree wholeheartedly that bernie definitely has a huge role to play in it.

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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This is when we really need Rattie.

Based on my memory, there were always tensions, but things got better when Bernie first got the boot in 78 and they remained charged and unified during their first US tours through London Calling. After their successes, Joe seemed to feel some sense of complacency which prompted the Bernie return ultimatum. The residencies and huge publicity victory of Bonds probably kept Bernie in good favor with Mick in 81. Things seemed to go south with Rat Patrol-Combat Rock as Mick lost that creative battle. The massive success of Combat Rock probably placated Mick a bit after that though, but perhaps that turned the tide of acrimony from Mick to Joe/Bernie at Mick.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:17pm
Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.
What the fuck does this mean exactly?
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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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matedog wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:56pm
This is when we really need Rattie.

Based on my memory, there were always tensions, but things got better when Bernie first got the boot in 78 and they remained charged and unified during their first US tours through London Calling. After their successes, Joe seemed to feel some sense of complacency which prompted the Bernie return ultimatum. The residencies and huge publicity victory of Bonds probably kept Bernie in good favor with Mick in 81. Things seemed to go south with Rat Patrol-Combat Rock as Mick lost that creative battle. The massive success of Combat Rock probably placated Mick a bit after that though, but perhaps that turned the tide of acrimony from Mick to Joe/Bernie at Mick.
It’s odd how some bands thrive under all of that inner turmoil. The Who is the most famous example. 4 genius musicians who were constantly at each other’s throats . Even Entwhistle and Moon, who were best buds had their fallings outs. Moon reportedly tried stabbing John over a misplaced bag of cocaine.

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

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I think in the end, Mick and Joe are very different people.
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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

Post by RockNRollWhore »

Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:05pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:17pm
Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.
What the fuck does this mean exactly?
Meaning he was always willing to experiment with Reggae, Ska, Calypso, Latin, Soul and then had this bizarre change of heart after sacking Mick. All of a sudden anything but 3 chord punk was “artsy” bullshit. The more interesting revelation would be if he secretly was always a bit on the musically conservative side of things.

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

Post by Marky Dread »

RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:13pm
Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:05pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:17pm
Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.
What the fuck does this mean exactly?
Meaning he was always willing to experiment with Reggae, Ska, Calypso, Latin, Soul and then had this bizarre change of heart after sacking Mick. All of a sudden anything but 3 chord punk was “artsy” bullshit. The more interesting revelation would be if he secretly was always a bit on the musically conservative side of things.
I think you are well wide of the mark here. The 101ers played rhythm and blues. Joe loved Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley. With The Clash after Mick you had plenty of live outings for tracks like Armagideon Time, Police & Thieves and so on. There is a element of Ska in "Three Card Trick" and "Do It Now". The way CtC was recorded with shitty synths and that linn drum killed any chance of those types of rhythms.
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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

Post by RockNRollWhore »

Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:19pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:13pm
Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:05pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:17pm
Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.
What the fuck does this mean exactly?
Meaning he was always willing to experiment with Reggae, Ska, Calypso, Latin, Soul and then had this bizarre change of heart after sacking Mick. All of a sudden anything but 3 chord punk was “artsy” bullshit. The more interesting revelation would be if he secretly was always a bit on the musically conservative side of things.
I think you are well wide of the mark here. The 101ers played rhythm and blues. Joe loved Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley. With The Clash after Mick you had plenty of live outings for tracks like Armagideon Time, Police & Thieves and so on. There is a element of Ska in "Three Card Trick" and "Do It Now". The way CtC was recorded with shitty synths and that linn drum killed any chance of those types of rhythms.
Oh don’t get me wrong I fully understand how ironic it would be coming from someone who played in band like the Clash. 84” Joe was on a whole other level of delusion though. The “White Power Orange Mohawk” thing was just a gag. Bernie however...

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Re: When did tensions begin to flare up between Mick and Joe?

Post by matedog »

Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:19pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:13pm
Marky Dread wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 5:05pm
RockNRollWhore wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 4:17pm
Kory wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 1:43pm
That Out on Parole fan book mentions tensions as early as '78, but it doesn't cite anything specific.
I doubt it was stylistic. Joe always seemed wholly onboard with the whole ethnic experimentation thing until his white power orange Mohawk phase.
What the fuck does this mean exactly?
Meaning he was always willing to experiment with Reggae, Ska, Calypso, Latin, Soul and then had this bizarre change of heart after sacking Mick. All of a sudden anything but 3 chord punk was “artsy” bullshit. The more interesting revelation would be if he secretly was always a bit on the musically conservative side of things.
I think you are well wide of the mark here. The 101ers played rhythm and blues. Joe loved Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley. With The Clash after Mick you had plenty of live outings for tracks like Armagideon Time, Police & Thieves and so on. There is a element of Ska in "Three Card Trick" and "Do It Now". The way CtC was recorded with shitty synths and that linn drum killed any chance of those types of rhythms.
Yeah, the January 84 shows were the most rock/punk centric shows post like 78. But Joe, albeit clumsily like most of his 84 existence, didn't frame it well. The whole San Francisco Police and Thieves intro about how they shouldn't play "black" music and that P&T was okay because it was a "white" take on black music without trying to mimic or appropriate the music ala The Police. That's what he was trying to get at.

It wasn't "white power orange Mohawk" because they were still nodding their heads towards "black" music. At least that's what they were trying to do before going back and playing Armagideon Time and Broadway, etc.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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