What was the consensus surrounding Sandanista after its release in 81' amongst the Clash fanbase?

[Guest1]

Hardcore emerged from seeing how easy it was for initial punk bands to be co-opted or assimilated into the commercial structures that punk (supposedly) rejected. Early punk was a beta effort that, however cool the music and shock, didn't succeed because the record industry still believed it could play ball with them … and so did most of those bands. So hardcore worked even harder to not appeal and it worked for a long time, until Husker Du and then Nirvana showed that, crap, even this kind of music can be prey. However unintentionally, they fucked up by building larger audiences receptive to their approach, which is all the incentive corporate music types need. With punk, nothing fails like success.

I’m much more a fan of the Clash/Manics style of mass communication. If you got something to say might as well get it out to as many people as possible. It’s funny how I’m the age of social media you have people posting all their political hot takes online, But no one really has the balls to form a band in that vein anymore.

I'm torn because I can see the virtues and dangers in playing ball with the majors to gain a wider audience, but I lean against it because I'm skeptical that the you can succeed at larger goals working from within. Personal success, sure, but greater social success suggests arms length and a middle finger.

Meh but there have been few bands that have been truly effective as activists on the indie level scale. Fugazi (no booze, 5 dollar all ages shows) is probably the best concrete example. I feel like the Clash and Manics as mainstream bands probably did more for switching people onto working class/leftist politics than any small time punk band on some obscure Lithuanian cassette imprint. You need the masses. This is music for the masses. The working classes. Manics had a funny dichotomy of being both working class underdogs but also kind of despising their coal miner roots. They seem to embraced welsh nationalism much more post Richey’s death.

For the sake of argument, let's grant all that (and I'm less confident than you on all that). But: (A) How many bands got swallowed up, watered down, ground up and shat out by signing with a major? And (B) Does the mass even exist now (if it ever did)? We live in any number of shards, so there is no mass to appeal to. There ain't gonna be another Beatles or even Clash not because of a lack of a talent but because the media and social landscape denies that kind of widespread audience now. Signing away your life ain't worth it.

I agree. The internet and Spotify killed the Zeitgiest. I was speaking more so within the context of the Clash and specifically the aforementioned accusation of them being a working class sellout. With a band who as much to say as they did, it would be an absolute shame if they had ended up on a Stiff Records or similar ilk. They really did need a major label backing to fully realize their vision. Same with the Manics. And what would the world do if Fratboys couldn’t pound beerkegs to the wonderful socialist anthems of Rage Against The Machine?!?!?!?

[Dr. Medulla]

I’m much more a fan of the Clash/Manics style of mass communication. If you got something to say might as well get it out to as many people as possible. It’s funny how I’m the age of social media you have people posting all their political hot takes online, But no one really has the balls to form a band in that vein anymore.

I'm torn because I can see the virtues and dangers in playing ball with the majors to gain a wider audience, but I lean against it because I'm skeptical that the you can succeed at larger goals working from within. Personal success, sure, but greater social success suggests arms length and a middle finger.

Meh but there have been few bands that have been truly effective as activists on the indie level scale. Fugazi (no booze, 5 dollar all ages shows) is probably the best concrete example. I feel like the Clash and Manics as mainstream bands probably did more for switching people onto working class/leftist politics than any small time punk band on some obscure Lithuanian cassette imprint. You need the masses. This is music for the masses. The working classes. Manics had a funny dichotomy of being both working class underdogs but also kind of despising their coal miner roots. They seem to embraced welsh nationalism much more post Richey’s death.

For the sake of argument, let's grant all that (and I'm less confident than you on all that). But: (A) How many bands got swallowed up, watered down, ground up and shat out by signing with a major? And (B) Does the mass even exist now (if it ever did)? We live in any number of shards, so there is no mass to appeal to. There ain't gonna be another Beatles or even Clash not because of a lack of a talent but because the media and social landscape denies that kind of widespread audience now. Signing away your life ain't worth it.

I agree. The internet and Spotify killed the Zeitgiest. I was speaking more so within the context of the Clash and specifically the aforementioned accusation of them being a working class sellout. With a band who as much to say as they did, it would be an absolute shame if they had ended up on a Stiff Records or similar ilk. They really did need a major label backing to fully realize their vision. Same with the Manics. And what would the world do if Fratboys couldn’t pound beerkegs to the wonderful socialist anthems of Rage Against The Machine?!?!?!?

Ultimately, I'm long past the game of condemning this band for "selling out" or celebrating their indie cred, etc etc etc. People do the things they think are proper at the time. Sometimes they (we) fuck up and regret it. Sometimes it works out. I think the Clash were fundamentally naive kids, but that's no crime—the industry relies on that. But their heart was in a better place than most.

[Marky Dread]

I'm torn because I can see the virtues and dangers in playing ball with the majors to gain a wider audience, but I lean against it because I'm skeptical that the you can succeed at larger goals working from within. Personal success, sure, but greater social success suggests arms length and a middle finger.

Meh but there have been few bands that have been truly effective as activists on the indie level scale. Fugazi (no booze, 5 dollar all ages shows) is probably the best concrete example. I feel like the Clash and Manics as mainstream bands probably did more for switching people onto working class/leftist politics than any small time punk band on some obscure Lithuanian cassette imprint. You need the masses. This is music for the masses. The working classes. Manics had a funny dichotomy of being both working class underdogs but also kind of despising their coal miner roots. They seem to embraced welsh nationalism much more post Richey’s death.

For the sake of argument, let's grant all that (and I'm less confident than you on all that). But: (A) How many bands got swallowed up, watered down, ground up and shat out by signing with a major? And (B) Does the mass even exist now (if it ever did)? We live in any number of shards, so there is no mass to appeal to. There ain't gonna be another Beatles or even Clash not because of a lack of a talent but because the media and social landscape denies that kind of widespread audience now. Signing away your life ain't worth it.

I agree. The internet and Spotify killed the Zeitgiest. I was speaking more so within the context of the Clash and specifically the aforementioned accusation of them being a working class sellout. With a band who as much to say as they did, it would be an absolute shame if they had ended up on a Stiff Records or similar ilk. They really did need a major label backing to fully realize their vision. Same with the Manics. And what would the world do if Fratboys couldn’t pound beerkegs to the wonderful socialist anthems of Rage Against The Machine?!?!?!?

Ultimately, I'm long past the game of condemning this band for "selling out" or celebrating their indie cred, etc etc etc. People do the things they think are proper at the time. Sometimes they (we) fuck up and regret it. Sometimes it works out. I think the Clash were fundamentally naive kids, but that's no crime—the industry relies on that. But their heart was in a better place than most.

Yep agree with Doc on this.