What was the consensus surrounding Sandanista after its release in 81' amongst the Clash fanbase?

[Inder]

Is it controversial to say that The Clash are/were probably held in higher regard outside of the UK?

Joe had that line in Westway about "anywhere but here" (or similar) — like, would The Jam (if they were still around) have been headlining the US Fest?

[Marky Dread]

Is it controversial to say that The Clash are/were probably held in higher regard outside of the UK?

Joe had that line in Westway about "anywhere but here" (or similar) — like, would The Jam (if they were still around) have been headlining the US Fest?

The key is between what UK fans felt about the band compared to the UK music press.

[matedog]

Also depends on when. Certainly The Clash was bigger in the UK in 77 and 78.

[Dr. Medulla]

I get the impression that signing the "big" deal with CBS was that unforgivable sin that meant no matter what they did after, some (mainly in the press) wouldn't give them any credit.

[Kory]

My recollection is that they tended to lose to the Jam a lot in the end-of-year polls in the UK rags.

[Dr. Medulla]

My recollection is that they tended to lose to the Jam a lot in the end-of-year polls in the UK rags.

Probably didn't help that the Clash looked to the US, Caribbean, and Central America for more and more inspiration, whereas the Jam were proudly English (the Motown influence noted). The Jam looked like the home town team.

[Marky Dread]

My recollection is that they tended to lose to the Jam a lot in the end-of-year polls in the UK rags.

Probably didn't help that the Clash looked to the US, Caribbean, and Central America for more and more inspiration, whereas the Jam were proudly English (the Motown influence noted). The Jam looked like the home town team.

Yep all the above. It's kinda strange that both Weller and The Jam mirrored what Strummer and The 101ers were doing with R 'n' B/R 'n' R from '74 onwards.

The differences being Weller's big influences were Ray Davies/Pete Townshend. And Strummer's being Woody Guthrie/Bob Dylan. This may be a cause for Joe's worldview being less myopic than Paul's.

...and yet for all the Who steals on the "In The City" album The Clash borrowed enough from The Kinks and The Who also.

[Low Down Low]

One thing i always felt about the press, well the uk press anyway, was you had a lot of big time egos who took themselves as seriously as the bands they were writing about, the likes of Morley, Burchill and her partner in crime whose name just not coming to me right now, the one mick very presciently stated would be a judas in one of their early interviews. These people always seemed to think they were one step ahead and it simply became fashionable to diss the clash. Obviously I'm sure there were exceptions but thats generally how i recall it.

[Dr. Medulla]

Could there also be an element of sneering at the band because, unlike the Pistols, they not only didn't self-destruct, they kept at it and got better? There's no romance in that. The Pistols had the better narrative, so fuck the Clash.

[Marky Dread]

One thing i always felt about the press, well the uk press anyway, was you had a lot of big time egos who took themselves as seriously as the bands they were writing about, the likes of Morley, Burchill and her partner in crime whose name just not coming to me right now, the one mick very presciently stated would be a judas in one of their early interviews. These people always seemed to think they were one step ahead and it simply became fashionable to diss the clash. Obviously I'm sure there were exceptions but thats generally how i recall it.

Tony Parsons.

[Marky Dread]

Could there also be an element of sneering at the band because, unlike the Pistols, they not only didn't self-destruct, they kept at it and got better? There's no romance in that. The Pistols had the better narrative, so fuck the Clash.

Kinda but don't forget the Pistols narrative doesn't end with John leaving.

I remember Gary Bushell (who I loathe) reviewing London Calling and Metal Box in '79. London Calling got a right kicking for being retrogressive and Metal Box as forward thinking. But he missed the point of LC completely. The Clash letting the world know that they are not stuck in a punk rock rut and acknowledging they are a great rock 'n' roll band. PiL of course also acknowledging that they feel rock 'n' roll is a dead format and yet their sound owes a debt to the past with bands such as Can and Van de Graaff Generator.

[Dr. Medulla]

Could there also be an element of sneering at the band because, unlike the Pistols, they not only didn't self-destruct, they kept at it and got better? There's no romance in that. The Pistols had the better narrative, so fuck the Clash.

Kinda but don't forget the Pistols narrative doesn't end with John leaving.

Well, to most the Pistols story ended in San Francisco or perhaps Sid's death. The Swindle's a weird epilogue, McLaren fucking the corpse. So, yeah, the Pistols story keeps going—more albums, more singles—but the sense of the "real" Pistols was done at Winterland.

(McLaren was so adept with language and concepts, I wonder if he resented how perfect Lydon's closing words were, that they stuck the landing when McLaren obviously wanted to do more.)

I remember Gary Bushell (who I loathe) reviewing London Calling and Metal Box in '79. London Calling got a right kicking for being retrogressive and Metal Box as forward thinking. But he missed the point of LC completely. The Clash letting the world know that they are not stuck in a punk rock rut and acknowledging they are a great rock 'n' roll band. PiL of course also acknowledging that they feel rock 'n' roll is a dead format and yet their sound owes a debt to the past with bands such as Can and Van de Graaff Generator.

LC's a weird record to me in that it is backward looking, but it still sounds like it's thinking about moving forward, the "what next?" of post-punk. But, yeah, Lydon's hold over critics was still ridiculously strong in '79. I remember Lester Bang's review of MB, where he said he was kind of scared of embracing the record for fear that Lydon would turn around and tell everyone it was a joke. Imagine a critic, esp. of Bangs' stature, being scared of an artist. Maybe the Clash' sincerity—or seeming sincerity—irked some critics when you have an apparent prankster like Lydon hovering.

[Kory]

LC's a weird record to me in that it is backward looking, but it still sounds like it's thinking about moving forward, the "what next?" of post-punk. But, yeah, Lydon's hold over critics was still ridiculously strong in '79. I remember Lester Bang's review of MB, where he said he was kind of scared of embracing the record for fear that Lydon would turn around and tell everyone it was a joke. Imagine a critic, esp. of Bangs' stature, being scared of an artist. Maybe the Clash' sincerity—or seeming sincerity—irked some critics when you have an apparent prankster like Lydon hovering.

Earnestness can be off-putting to some, especially to endlessly sarcastic and critical music journalists. I think you've probably touched on something there.

[Marky Dread]

Could there also be an element of sneering at the band because, unlike the Pistols, they not only didn't self-destruct, they kept at it and got better? There's no romance in that. The Pistols had the better narrative, so fuck the Clash.

Kinda but don't forget the Pistols narrative doesn't end with John leaving.

Well, to most the Pistols story ended in San Francisco or perhaps Sid's death. The Swindle's a weird epilogue, McLaren fucking the corpse. So, yeah, the Pistols story keeps going—more albums, more singles—but the sense of the "real" Pistols was done at Winterland.

(McLaren was so adept with language and concepts, I wonder if he resented how perfect Lydon's closing words were, that they stuck the landing when McLaren obviously wanted to do more.)

I remember Gary Bushell (who I loathe) reviewing London Calling and Metal Box in '79. London Calling got a right kicking for being retrogressive and Metal Box as forward thinking. But he missed the point of LC completely. The Clash letting the world know that they are not stuck in a punk rock rut and acknowledging they are a great rock 'n' roll band. PiL of course also acknowledging that they feel rock 'n' roll is a dead format and yet their sound owes a debt to the past with bands such as Can and Van de Graaff Generator.

LC's a weird record to me in that it is backward looking, but it still sounds like it's thinking about moving forward, the "what next?" of post-punk. But, yeah, Lydon's hold over critics was still ridiculously strong in '79. I remember Lester Bang's review of MB, where he said he was kind of scared of embracing the record for fear that Lydon would turn around and tell everyone it was a joke. Imagine a critic, esp. of Bangs' stature, being scared of an artist. Maybe the Clash' sincerity—or seeming sincerity—irked some critics when you have an apparent prankster like Lydon hovering.

Again everything you say here is damn close to the truth of it all. The problem is the music press here were so far up their own backsides that they believed they could make or break a band. You would read reviews and think did they just listen to same record you bought. Awful hackneyed views and lousy reviews because it was too much effort to actually write about the music anymore.

Yes I agree with your assessment of LC as the title track is very much a forward thinking post punk song. The rest is the band showing their chops and their love of music in general and moving away from that narrow straitjacket that punk was in danger of becoming.

[Guest1]

Could there also be an element of sneering at the band because, unlike the Pistols, they not only didn't self-destruct, they kept at it and got better? There's no romance in that. The Pistols had the better narrative, so fuck the Clash.

Kinda but don't forget the Pistols narrative doesn't end with John leaving.

Well, to most the Pistols story ended in San Francisco or perhaps Sid's death. The Swindle's a weird epilogue, McLaren fucking the corpse. So, yeah, the Pistols story keeps going—more albums, more singles—but the sense of the "real" Pistols was done at Winterland.

(McLaren was so adept with language and concepts, I wonder if he resented how perfect Lydon's closing words were, that they stuck the landing when McLaren obviously wanted to do more.)

I remember Gary Bushell (who I loathe) reviewing London Calling and Metal Box in '79. London Calling got a right kicking for being retrogressive and Metal Box as forward thinking. But he missed the point of LC completely. The Clash letting the world know that they are not stuck in a punk rock rut and acknowledging they are a great rock 'n' roll band. PiL of course also acknowledging that they feel rock 'n' roll is a dead format and yet their sound owes a debt to the past with bands such as Can and Van de Graaff Generator.

LC's a weird record to me in that it is backward looking, but it still sounds like it's thinking about moving forward, the "what next?" of post-punk. But, yeah, Lydon's hold over critics was still ridiculously strong in '79. I remember Lester Bang's review of MB, where he said he was kind of scared of embracing the record for fear that Lydon would turn around and tell everyone it was a joke. Imagine a critic, esp. of Bangs' stature, being scared of an artist. Maybe the Clash' sincerity—or seeming sincerity—irked some critics when you have an apparent prankster like Lydon hovering.

Again everything you say here is damn close to the truth of it all. The problem is the music press here were so far up their own backsides that they believed they could make or break a band. You would read reviews and think did they just listen to same record you bought. Awful hackneyed views and lousy reviews because it was too much effort to actually write about the music anymore.

Yes I agree with your assessment of LC as the title track is very much a forward thinking post punk song. The rest is the band showing their chops and their love of music in general and moving away from that narrow straitjacket that punk was in danger of becoming.

I mean that’s the difference between the class of 77 and later punk in general. Those were punk bands yes but they grew up the Stones, Kinks, Beatles, The Who, Motown etc... some even had their roots in it like Joe and the 101ers. So these were rock influenced punk bands (despite all the year zero bullshit). They played fast and gritty but still knew the importance of a good hook and had an appreciation of songcraft. Some more than others obviously but bands like the Clash and the Jam were so potent because they with piss and vigor yet still knew how to write a good middle 8, and while not super virtuosic, could insert a tasty little guitar within their music. It’s when the PUNK influenced punk bands came along that I believe things really began to be dug into a rut. As much as I love early hardcore and OI this certainly fits that description. The would be Clashes, the eccentric, creative types moved onto post punk, jangle pop, industrial, and New Romantics, etc... That’s the way I see it anyhow. I think Ian Mackaye would be the spiritual successor to the Clash in the American hardcore scene. Made angry pissed off punk records then moved onto Fugazi and experimented greatly. There’s a quote in Azarad’s book “Our Band Could Be Your Life” wherein Ian Mackaye talks about the initial backlash Fugazi received from the old hardcore punk guard. “They said “what the fuck is this shit? Whiteboy reggae?” (In reference to songs like waiting room) these kids came along in 1980 and grew up with Minor Threat and Black Flag, they had no idea about the cross pollination of punk and ethnic music with bands like The Clash.” That’s not verbatim because I haven’t read that book in years but close enough. I like a lot of individual punk songs but there’s only a few groups musically engaging enough to keep me interested in their discography. It’s not even about being able to shred on their instrument. Playing Beatles or Stones songs on guitar or drums is hardly rocket science, but those bands appreciated songcraft, ebb and flow, etc...