What was the consensus surrounding Sandanista after its release in 81' amongst the Clash fanbase?

[Dr. Medulla]

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

[Flex]

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

Weezer analogy is a good for another reason: both band's best album is their sophomore LP.

[Marky Dread]

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

I don't trust Weezer. I'm sure their dad is a diplomat.

[matedog]

I really resent how The Clash are everyone's favourite targets for "working class betrayal" types and people outraged that they didn't live in penury as some kind of cosmic penance for being somewhat successful, especially after all the details on financials have come out in various books etc.

People like Lydon and his real estate stuff don't get picked apart nearly as much as Joe Strummer's father not being a bank robber.

Perhaps because Lydon didn't promote himself as a working-class advocate (beyond using his background as a shield from criticism). His line of politics was a lot more generalized—yay, freedom!—that could be applied to all classes and spectrum politics. I'm not saying it's right, but Lydon's never argued for anything but a noble selfishness, whereas the fact that the Clash claimed to advocate for others set themselves up as targets.

Not sure if recent Lydon counts, but there's this quote: "Where do I stand on Brexit? Well, here it goes, the working class have spoke and I’m one of them and I’m with them.”

[matedog]

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

Man, throwing in all the Hoy bait into one post.

[Dr. Medulla]

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

Man, throwing in all the Hoy bait into one post.

something something numbered Asian girl regularity

[Dr. Medulla]

I really resent how The Clash are everyone's favourite targets for "working class betrayal" types and people outraged that they didn't live in penury as some kind of cosmic penance for being somewhat successful, especially after all the details on financials have come out in various books etc.

People like Lydon and his real estate stuff don't get picked apart nearly as much as Joe Strummer's father not being a bank robber.

Perhaps because Lydon didn't promote himself as a working-class advocate (beyond using his background as a shield from criticism). His line of politics was a lot more generalized—yay, freedom!—that could be applied to all classes and spectrum politics. I'm not saying it's right, but Lydon's never argued for anything but a noble selfishness, whereas the fact that the Clash claimed to advocate for others set themselves up as targets.

Not sure if recent Lydon counts, but there's this quote: "Where do I stand on Brexit? Well, here it goes, the working class have spoke and I’m one of them and I’m with them.”

Lazy faux populism, which is pretty much why he's a Trumpist now. The mystery is whether he believes his own bullshit or he's happily spinning to annoy.

[matedog]

London Calling seems to be the first time they embraced classic rock and roll. Obviously in 77 they had "No Elvis, Beatles..." (ignoring the Kinks riffs of course). It doesn't completely eschew modernity, particularly in the lyrics department as they are as Clashy as ever - Clampdown, drug references on Hateful and Koka Kola. Stuff you wouldn't hear on the source inspiration material.

It's interesting to assess it at the time vs. in retrospect. I'm not sure if either view is more valid, probably not, but it does really shape how you view it. I came at it from a classic rock perspective and loved it. It's the first album I got after Story Of and was completely hooked. It sounds timeless whereas Metal Box does sound more dated. The drums and bass tone really plant it in late 70s. Metal Box is obviously a much more challenging listen, albeit with some big payoffs. I don't know, I'm kind of thinking aloud here.

[matedog]

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

The Clash enjoyed the Weezer reputation of constantly disappointing the media and real fanz—their best stuff was always in the past—decades before Weezer. Dumb narratives get repeated because it's easy, just like everything about Springsteen proves he's the real voice of real America.

Man, throwing in all the Hoy bait into one post.

something something numbered Asian girl regularity

[Marky Dread]

London Calling seems to be the first time they embraced classic rock and roll. Obviously in 77 they had "No Elvis, Beatles..." (ignoring the Kinks riffs of course). It doesn't completely eschew modernity, particularly in the lyrics department as they are as Clashy as ever - Clampdown, drug references on Hateful and Koka Kola. Stuff you wouldn't hear on the source inspiration material.

It's interesting to assess it at the time vs. in retrospect. I'm not sure if either view is more valid, probably not, but it does really shape how you view it. I came at it from a classic rock perspective and loved it. It's the first album I got after Story Of and was completely hooked. It sounds timeless whereas Metal Box does sound more dated. The drums and bass tone really plant it in late 70s. Metal Box is obviously a much more challenging listen, albeit with some big payoffs. I don't know, I'm kind of thinking aloud here.

I've been remastering all the 101ers material I have. And it dawned on me that with songs like "Keep Taking the Tablets" and "Rabies (From the Dogs of Love)" they are closer to London Calling than The Clash and GEER.

An interesting piece of trivia also. When Chiswick Records released "Keys of Your Heart" in 1976 there was a mispress that featured "Brand New Cadillac" by Vince Taylor as the A-side. Ironic maybe.

[matedog]

London Calling seems to be the first time they embraced classic rock and roll. Obviously in 77 they had "No Elvis, Beatles..." (ignoring the Kinks riffs of course). It doesn't completely eschew modernity, particularly in the lyrics department as they are as Clashy as ever - Clampdown, drug references on Hateful and Koka Kola. Stuff you wouldn't hear on the source inspiration material.

It's interesting to assess it at the time vs. in retrospect. I'm not sure if either view is more valid, probably not, but it does really shape how you view it. I came at it from a classic rock perspective and loved it. It's the first album I got after Story Of and was completely hooked. It sounds timeless whereas Metal Box does sound more dated. The drums and bass tone really plant it in late 70s. Metal Box is obviously a much more challenging listen, albeit with some big payoffs. I don't know, I'm kind of thinking aloud here.

I've been remastering all the 101ers material I have. And it dawned on me that with songs like "Keep Taking the Tablets" and "Rabies (From the Dogs of Love)" they are closer to London Calling than The Clash and GEER.

An interesting piece of trivia also. When Chiswick Records released "Keys of Your Heart" in 1976 there was a mispress that featured "Brand New Cadillac" by Vince Taylor as the A-side. Ironic maybe.

Joe seemed to have developed an appreciation for the 101ers around 79/80. Or at least was more open about it. They did Keys to Your Heart live and Elgin Ave came out around then right? Did they play some gigs or am I imagining that?

[Guest1]

It’s when the PUNK influenced punk bands came along that I believe things really began to be dug into a rut. As much as I love early hardcore and OI this certainly fits that description. The would be Clashes, the eccentric, creative types moved onto post punk, jangle pop, industrial, and New Romantics, etc... That’s the way I see it anyhow.

Hardcore emerged from seeing how easy it was for initial punk bands to be co-opted or assimilated into the commercial structures that punk (supposedly) rejected. Early punk was a beta effort that, however cool the music and shock, didn't succeed because the record industry still believed it could play ball with them … and so did most of those bands. So hardcore worked even harder to not appeal and it worked for a long time, until Husker Du and then Nirvana showed that, crap, even this kind of music can be prey. However unintentionally, they fucked up by building larger audiences receptive to their approach, which is all the incentive corporate music types need. With punk, nothing fails like success.

I’m much more a fan of the Clash/Manics style of mass communication. If you got something to say might as well get it out to as many people as possible. It’s funny how I’m the age of social media you have people posting all their political hot takes online, But no one really has the balls to form a band in that vein anymore.

I'm torn because I can see the virtues and dangers in playing ball with the majors to gain a wider audience, but I lean against it because I'm skeptical that the you can succeed at larger goals working from within. Personal success, sure, but greater social success suggests arms length and a middle finger.

Meh but there have been few bands that have been truly effective as activists on the indie level scale. Fugazi (no booze, 5 dollar all ages shows) is probably the best concrete example. I feel like the Clash and Manics as mainstream bands probably did more for switching people onto working class/leftist politics than any small time punk band on some obscure Lithuanian cassette imprint. You need the masses. This is music for the masses. The working classes. Manics had a funny dichotomy of being both working class underdogs but also kind of despising their coal miner roots. They seem to embraced welsh nationalism much more post Richey’s death.

[Guest1]

There's probably some happy medium where no one expects you to destroy your own life and ability to be happy and stable because we're all subject to living within the bounds of capitalism, but also that some level of critique, and consideration of how a person can try to ethically navigate a limited set of choices, is worth considering. That's not really about The Clash, per se, more of a general thought.

I really resent how The Clash are everyone's favourite targets for "working class betrayal" types and people outraged that they didn't live in penury as some kind of cosmic penance for being somewhat successful, especially after all the details on financials have come out in various books etc.

People like Lydon and his real estate stuff don't get picked apart nearly as much as Joe Strummer's father not being a bank robber.

I agree it's all a cheap shot really. I think it's just The Clash tried to champion the poor and working class at times. Whereas Rotten/Lydon never tried to deny success and wealth. He was always happy to better himself.

I really resent how The Clash are everyone's favourite targets for "working class betrayal" types and people outraged that they didn't live in penury as some kind of cosmic penance for being somewhat successful, especially after all the details on financials have come out in various books etc.

People like Lydon and his real estate stuff don't get picked apart nearly as much as Joe Strummer's father not being a bank robber.

Perhaps because Lydon didn't promote himself as a working-class advocate (beyond using his background as a shield from criticism). His line of politics was a lot more generalized—yay, freedom!—that could be applied to all classes and spectrum politics. I'm not saying it's right, but Lydon's never argued for anything but a noble selfishness, whereas the fact that the Clash claimed to advocate for others set themselves up as targets.

All this is fair, but tbh I suspect a lot of this style of animus is rooted in other stuff -- maybe as simple as not really liking their music!

Anyways, I find people like this the most boring people on the planet and have managed to do a good job avoiding them over the years.

John is a bit far up his own ass. The whole “The Sex Pistols killed rock n roll in 1977” thing is so cringy now.

[Dr. Medulla]

It’s when the PUNK influenced punk bands came along that I believe things really began to be dug into a rut. As much as I love early hardcore and OI this certainly fits that description. The would be Clashes, the eccentric, creative types moved onto post punk, jangle pop, industrial, and New Romantics, etc... That’s the way I see it anyhow.

Hardcore emerged from seeing how easy it was for initial punk bands to be co-opted or assimilated into the commercial structures that punk (supposedly) rejected. Early punk was a beta effort that, however cool the music and shock, didn't succeed because the record industry still believed it could play ball with them … and so did most of those bands. So hardcore worked even harder to not appeal and it worked for a long time, until Husker Du and then Nirvana showed that, crap, even this kind of music can be prey. However unintentionally, they fucked up by building larger audiences receptive to their approach, which is all the incentive corporate music types need. With punk, nothing fails like success.

I’m much more a fan of the Clash/Manics style of mass communication. If you got something to say might as well get it out to as many people as possible. It’s funny how I’m the age of social media you have people posting all their political hot takes online, But no one really has the balls to form a band in that vein anymore.

I'm torn because I can see the virtues and dangers in playing ball with the majors to gain a wider audience, but I lean against it because I'm skeptical that the you can succeed at larger goals working from within. Personal success, sure, but greater social success suggests arms length and a middle finger.

Meh but there have been few bands that have been truly effective as activists on the indie level scale. Fugazi (no booze, 5 dollar all ages shows) is probably the best concrete example. I feel like the Clash and Manics as mainstream bands probably did more for switching people onto working class/leftist politics than any small time punk band on some obscure Lithuanian cassette imprint. You need the masses. This is music for the masses. The working classes. Manics had a funny dichotomy of being both working class underdogs but also kind of despising their coal miner roots. They seem to embraced welsh nationalism much more post Richey’s death.

For the sake of argument, let's grant all that (and I'm less confident than you on all that). But: (A) How many bands got swallowed up, watered down, ground up and shat out by signing with a major? And (B) Does the mass even exist now (if it ever did)? We live in any number of shards, so there is no mass to appeal to. There ain't gonna be another Beatles or even Clash not because of a lack of a talent but because the media and social landscape denies that kind of widespread audience now. Signing away your life ain't worth it.

[Marky Dread]

London Calling seems to be the first time they embraced classic rock and roll. Obviously in 77 they had "No Elvis, Beatles..." (ignoring the Kinks riffs of course). It doesn't completely eschew modernity, particularly in the lyrics department as they are as Clashy as ever - Clampdown, drug references on Hateful and Koka Kola. Stuff you wouldn't hear on the source inspiration material.

It's interesting to assess it at the time vs. in retrospect. I'm not sure if either view is more valid, probably not, but it does really shape how you view it. I came at it from a classic rock perspective and loved it. It's the first album I got after Story Of and was completely hooked. It sounds timeless whereas Metal Box does sound more dated. The drums and bass tone really plant it in late 70s. Metal Box is obviously a much more challenging listen, albeit with some big payoffs. I don't know, I'm kind of thinking aloud here.

I've been remastering all the 101ers material I have. And it dawned on me that with songs like "Keep Taking the Tablets" and "Rabies (From the Dogs of Love)" they are closer to London Calling than The Clash and GEER.

An interesting piece of trivia also. When Chiswick Records released "Keys of Your Heart" in 1976 there was a mispress that featured "Brand New Cadillac" by Vince Taylor as the A-side. Ironic maybe.

Joe seemed to have developed an appreciation for the 101ers around 79/80. Or at least was more open about it. They did Keys to Your Heart live and Elgin Ave came out around then right? Did they play some gigs or am I imagining that?

They played the Tabernacle in 1981 I seem to remember.