Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

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Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Guest1 »

I reckon Terry’s simpler metronomic actually suits the music to a tee. I would love have heard Rat Scabies playing on stuff like White Riot though... Who would you have liked to see hitting the skins?

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Heston »

Terry is great on the debut.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by bazarboy75 »

Yes

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Heston »

bazarboy75 wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 1:34pm
Yes
I don't think Topper improved on the early stuff live. In some cases he was worse.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Marky Dread »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 8:36am
Terry is great on the debut.
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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Sparky »

I always though Terry was a good fit for the 1st Clash album, but don't think his style necessarily was a good fit when he replaced Mark Laff in Generation X version 2.0.
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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by bazarboy75 »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 3:18pm
bazarboy75 wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 1:34pm
Yes
I don't think Topper improved on the early stuff live. In some cases he was worse.
Worst than terry ?
Impossible

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by matedog »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 3:18pm
bazarboy75 wrote:
25 Apr 2021, 1:34pm
Yes
I don't think Topper improved on the early stuff live. In some cases he was worse.
Career Ops was better with Topper. He played the first album better than Terry did in 82 as well. For what it’s worth, I don’t have any specific issues with his playing on the album. Police and Thieve’s beat us hypnotic and the intro to Cheat seems well thought out and well executed.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Inder »

I love the album, and yeah, DIY stripped-down punk rock etc, but the drums on the self-titled sound like someone hitting cardboard boxes. X(

But OTOH, if you changed how the drums sound, you'd have to change how the guitars sound, then change the singing a bit, then suddenly you've got Never Mind the Bollocks instead of The Clash.

And Hes, there is no planet on which Topper played anything worse than Terry. This is the most viscerally Heston thing I have read all year.

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Heston »

Janie Jones was never as precise.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Marky Dread »

There's no argument Topper was a way more technically proficient drummer than Terry.

But that drum sound on the first album is great. Perfectly so. Topper would not have improved it in my opinion.

Terry is more Charlie Watts and Topper is Billy Cobham.
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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by matedog »

Here's the only studio apples to apples comparison we have:
Terry:

Topper:
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Silent Majority »

matedog wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 11:36am
Here's the only studio apples to apples comparison we have:
Terry:

Topper:

Not completely fair - the band had seriously grown their skill as arrangers in the meantime, too. But, yeah, Topper fucking storms that with a power and focus I doubt Terry capable of.
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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Inder »

Also Remote Control from LC25 with Tops.

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Re: Do you think the Debut would have sounded better with topper?

Post by Flex »

Inder wrote:
26 Apr 2021, 12:08pm
Also Remote Control from LC25 with Tops.
yeah, i was actually thinking of this one.

I think there are two sort of counterfactual's to consider here:

1. Self titled just recorded as-is with the same basic arrangements but Topper is plunked in in place of Terry. I don't see how Topper improves that. For whatever faults Terry had (and they were many), that first album is basically perfect as-is. I just don't see how Topper meshes in with the gritty and basic approach of the first album.

2. Sort of what Inder started to allude to: Topper replacing Terry isn't just a story where everything else is the same as we think of it now. Maybe there's an alternate reality where, I dunno, the clash record an EP with the early lineup incuding levene and terry that is made up of those real early tracks that never ended up on an album. Then they leave and Topper comes in. They have this rudimentary EP in hand and some demos of much, much better songs. With those early recordings done first, it's a bit later now - maybe the clash are putting together their first full length later in 77 or even into early 78. They already know their way around a studio a bit better, and Topper is coming in and working with the band as a teammate instead of just taking over Terry's parts on already-released songs. Maybe you get the "Self titled sounding like NMTB" as inder suggests, but maybe you get a self titled that sounds like the cost of living ep turned into a full length? That could have been rad as hell. Would it have been "better?" I dunno. It wouldn't have captured the moment of 76/77 the way self titled does. Ultimately, I'm glad things worked out the way they did.
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