Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

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topperville
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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by topperville »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 May 2021, 4:09pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 3:48pm
blureu wrote:
16 May 2021, 3:44pm
Current bid is £4,000. Do we know who is the owner ?
Sony/The Clash?
;)
J. Mick of Shedshire
Brilliant!😂

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by TeddyB Not Logged In »

YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 2:33am
Mick’s proposed version of Rat Patrol was the double album with the track-list posted above. The Rat Patrol version of Ghetto Defendant is the “extended unedited version” found on Sound System. Overpowered by Funk was also mixed during the Rat Patrol sessions and mooted for a twelve inch. Long Time Jerk was earmarked for a B Side. This two sides acetate was cut the same day as the four sides one Mick had proposed. I don’t know whose idea the two sided version was, and had never heard of it before.

And yes, acetates are always one-sided.
At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Wolter »

TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm
YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 2:33am
Mick’s proposed version of Rat Patrol was the double album with the track-list posted above. The Rat Patrol version of Ghetto Defendant is the “extended unedited version” found on Sound System. Overpowered by Funk was also mixed during the Rat Patrol sessions and mooted for a twelve inch. Long Time Jerk was earmarked for a B Side. This two sides acetate was cut the same day as the four sides one Mick had proposed. I don’t know whose idea the two sided version was, and had never heard of it before.

And yes, acetates are always one-sided.
At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Honestly, pleasing Muff Winwood would’ve probably been impossible unless they committed artistic suicide.
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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Marky Dread »

TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm
YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 2:33am
Mick’s proposed version of Rat Patrol was the double album with the track-list posted above. The Rat Patrol version of Ghetto Defendant is the “extended unedited version” found on Sound System. Overpowered by Funk was also mixed during the Rat Patrol sessions and mooted for a twelve inch. Long Time Jerk was earmarked for a B Side. This two sides acetate was cut the same day as the four sides one Mick had proposed. I don’t know whose idea the two sided version was, and had never heard of it before.

And yes, acetates are always one-sided.
At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
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My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by TeddyB Not Logged In »

Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:01pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm
YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 2:33am
Mick’s proposed version of Rat Patrol was the double album with the track-list posted above. The Rat Patrol version of Ghetto Defendant is the “extended unedited version” found on Sound System. Overpowered by Funk was also mixed during the Rat Patrol sessions and mooted for a twelve inch. Long Time Jerk was earmarked for a B Side. This two sides acetate was cut the same day as the four sides one Mick had proposed. I don’t know whose idea the two sided version was, and had never heard of it before.

And yes, acetates are always one-sided.
At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
Some might say he was too advanced for his own good!

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Marky Dread »

TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:05pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:01pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm
YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 2:33am
Mick’s proposed version of Rat Patrol was the double album with the track-list posted above. The Rat Patrol version of Ghetto Defendant is the “extended unedited version” found on Sound System. Overpowered by Funk was also mixed during the Rat Patrol sessions and mooted for a twelve inch. Long Time Jerk was earmarked for a B Side. This two sides acetate was cut the same day as the four sides one Mick had proposed. I don’t know whose idea the two sided version was, and had never heard of it before.

And yes, acetates are always one-sided.
At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
Some might say he was too advanced for his own good!
Well yeah I get that. But it made me realise more the idea that Mick was pushing them further and further away from punk. Which is the argument the others fronted up with as an excuse. But they were not a punk sounding band after the debut and the first few singles. They had become so much more changing with each new album and keeping the punk spirit alive with attitude. Bernie may have convinced Joe that punk rock was about music and Joe and Paul were very retro thinking with older styles.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by KCportland »

Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:10pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:05pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:01pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm
YoungParisians wrote:
16 May 2021, 12:14pm


At the time of these acetate cuts (January 82), was the idea of a double LP just Mick's proposal? Or were multiple parties - Bernie/Joe/Kosmo and the UK/US record label - on board with a 2LP, too? Wondering at what point the idea of the 2LP was confirmed (if ever) then rejected...or if the record label ever really wanted a double LP in the first place.

Was downsizing to a single album already decided before Glyn Johns was called in to remix?
No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
Some might say he was too advanced for his own good!
Well yeah I get that. But it made me realise more the idea that Mick was pushing them further and further away from punk. Which is the argument the others fronted up with as an excuse. But they were not a punk sounding band after the debut and the first few singles. They had become so much more changing with each new album and keeping the punk spirit alive with attitude. Bernie may have convinced Joe that punk rock was about music and Joe and Paul were very retro thinking with older styles.
I just find it funny that for all of Bernie and Joe's sneering at Mick for his "pop-star" tendencies (really what they hated was that Mick embraced new music, most of which was still underground music at the time), they didn't have the foresight to realize that without him, they uhhhh...wouldn't have a guy who knew how to write or arrange music in the group. Joe realized it eventually, but was too late.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Marky Dread »

KCportland wrote:
16 May 2021, 7:32pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:10pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:05pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:01pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 5:32pm


No one asked the label’s input re a double album. Communication within the band was limited. Mick thought he was working with the band’s approval. The downsizing, with Glyn Johns’s participation, was later presented to him as a fait accompli.

The acetates for Mick’s track list and the ones for the abridged version were both cut January 24, 1982. This suggests no decision had yet been taken. Whatever discussions transpired between Bernie and Joe are unknown. I think Bernie forced the issue for sales potential, and as a power play against Mick, in which he engaged a willing Joe. Two of three projected singles were given new vocals, and spruced up for commercial potential. Ironically, Casbah became the hit, and was little changed from Mick’s mix.

As for Muff Winwood, I doubt his taste ran to the Clash to begin with. Bernie would have just used him to back up his case.
Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
Some might say he was too advanced for his own good!
Well yeah I get that. But it made me realise more the idea that Mick was pushing them further and further away from punk. Which is the argument the others fronted up with as an excuse. But they were not a punk sounding band after the debut and the first few singles. They had become so much more changing with each new album and keeping the punk spirit alive with attitude. Bernie may have convinced Joe that punk rock was about music and Joe and Paul were very retro thinking with older styles.
I just find it funny that for all of Bernie and Joe's sneering at Mick for his "pop-star" tendencies (really what they hated was that Mick embraced new music, most of which was still underground music at the time), they didn't have the foresight to realize that without him, they uhhhh...wouldn't have a guy who knew how to write or arrange music in the group. Joe realized it eventually, but was too late.
Yeah I mean Joe could write fine songs but the arranger in Mick was a huge loss to The Clash. They were always changing with none of their albums sounding like the last one. Pushing forward trying new and old styles with a great attitude that anything was fair game.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
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The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Low Down Low »

There's a very obvious contradiction for me in the way some portrayed mick as the wannabe rock star all out for the trappings of success, yet it was the others who bristled at the prospect of his vision for the album not being commercial enough to release. But then, this is the Clash so contradictions are an integral part of the story.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by TeddyB Not Logged In »

Low Down Low wrote:
16 May 2021, 8:12pm
There's a very obvious contradiction for me in the way some portrayed mick as the wannabe rock star all out for the trappings of success, yet it was the others who bristled at the prospect of his vision for the album not being commercial enough to release. But then, this is the Clash so contradictions are an integral part of the story.

As they say on the internet, this. ^

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Wolter »

Was “Rock the Casbah” always this apocalyptic and I just never noticed?
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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by bazarboy75 »

C mon that B side kicks ass !

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Red Angel »

When David Bowie was about to release his masterpiece "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust" in 1972, he and his collaborators assembled and disassembled their project many times, putting one song in and out of another, changing the order of the songs many times, like a Rubrik's cube, until the final solution is found.
Bowie's is just one example because it happens pretty much all the time, for all albums. Rat Patrol was Mick's personal vision of the project, an intermediate stage to introduce to the other three, after all The Clash were a band. Personally I love Combat Rock because it is very well assembled and with the right sequence of songs. Surely someone else will prefer Rat Patrol, but it's not a problem, just a PC and an audio editing program and everyone, I repeat everyone, can make his favorite version, I assure you that it is very easy. That said, if an official version of Rat Patrol comes out tomorrow, I'd be the first to buy it.

PS
Thanks again to all those who have contributed positively to this discussion, especially those who have used their time to work on the audio track.
Music is the only thing that matters

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by Marky Dread »

Red Angel wrote:
17 May 2021, 4:21am
When David Bowie was about to release his masterpiece "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust" in 1972, he and his collaborators assembled and disassembled their project many times, putting one song in and out of another, changing the order of the songs many times, like a Rubrik's cube, until the final solution is found.
Bowie's is just one example because it happens pretty much all the time, for all albums. Rat Patrol was Mick's personal vision of the project, an intermediate stage to introduce to the other three, after all The Clash were a band. Personally I love Combat Rock because it is very well assembled and with the right sequence of songs. Surely someone else will prefer Rat Patrol, but it's not a problem, just a PC and an audio editing program and everyone, I repeat everyone, can make his favorite version, I assure you that it is very easy. That said, if an official version of Rat Patrol comes out tomorrow, I'd be the first to buy it.

PS
Thanks again to all those who have contributed positively to this discussion, especially those who have used their time to work on the audio track.
;)
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

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Re: Rat Patrol 2LP acetate

Post by WestwayKid »

Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 7:46pm
KCportland wrote:
16 May 2021, 7:32pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:10pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:05pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 May 2021, 6:01pm


Yeah this whole thing just smacks of Bernie's power play.

Something else struck me that I hadn't thought about before. Mick was always the best musician in the band with his innovative thinking pushing the band into new directions. At this point was he now too advanced for The Clash?
Some might say he was too advanced for his own good!
Well yeah I get that. But it made me realise more the idea that Mick was pushing them further and further away from punk. Which is the argument the others fronted up with as an excuse. But they were not a punk sounding band after the debut and the first few singles. They had become so much more changing with each new album and keeping the punk spirit alive with attitude. Bernie may have convinced Joe that punk rock was about music and Joe and Paul were very retro thinking with older styles.
I just find it funny that for all of Bernie and Joe's sneering at Mick for his "pop-star" tendencies (really what they hated was that Mick embraced new music, most of which was still underground music at the time), they didn't have the foresight to realize that without him, they uhhhh...wouldn't have a guy who knew how to write or arrange music in the group. Joe realized it eventually, but was too late.
Yeah I mean Joe could write fine songs but the arranger in Mick was a huge loss to The Clash. They were always changing with none of their albums sounding like the last one. Pushing forward trying new and old styles with a great attitude that anything was fair game.
Where was Joe's head at in 82/83? Seems like he was a bit all over the place. I can see him digging the new music and direction, but also just as easily pulled aside by Bernie where he would be swayed/agree that the new music was a bad idea.
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