Kyiv Calling

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Eddie
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Kyiv Calling

Post by Eddie »

Speaks for itself....


Flex
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Flex »

Just so no one thinks we're totally negligent, it was posted in the politics sub-forum in the thread about the Russia-Ukraine War, that said this might be a nice place to comment as well for people who want to hew more closely to the music than the politics. I think it's really well done, and I appreciate this got the formal blessing of the remaining band members. If they put the song up formally for sale somewhere as a fundraiser I'll buy it, for sure.

I also like the band's sound, broadly speaking. Non-English speaking punk is a vast array of different countries, scenes, backgrounds and styles that I enjoy visiting, even if just as a tourist/outsider.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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Low Down Low
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Low Down Low »

I think this is pretty cool in lots of ways, though i do have one or two issues with a song calling for a no fly zone and a closer step to all out nuclear annihilation.

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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Wolter »

Low Down Low wrote:
21 Mar 2022, 7:57am
I think this is pretty cool in lots of ways, though i do have one or two issues with a song calling for a no fly zone and a closer step to all out nuclear annihilation.
Yeah. That was my issue. Otherwise, great
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Heston
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Heston »

Those devil voices again. They're everywhere.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

bazarboy75
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by bazarboy75 »

it has been blooming on the networks since this weekend

From Billy Bragg page

Yesterday evening I posted a clip of the Ukranian band Beton performing their rewrite of 'London Calling'. According to reports, the song 'Kyiv Calling' was approved by the Clash, with funds raised going to the Free Ukraine Resistance Movement.
After a few hours of discussing the lyrics of the song and whether Joe Strummer would approve of the rewrite, a number of people drew my attention to a series of photographs on the band's Facebook page showing members of the band wearing t-shirts based on the Ramones circular logo.
The word 'Ramones' at the top of the logo had been replaced with the word 'Banderas' and although all of the names within the circle were not visible, the one that was clearly read 'Stepan'. The photos dated from a year ago.
This is deeply troubling. Stepan Bandera was a far-right Ukranian politician who collaborated with the Nazis during the occupation of Ukraine and whose followers were complicit in the Holocaust. That he did these things in the name of Ukranian independence from the Soviet Union has led some present day far right nationalists to adopt his image in their decade long struggle with Russia.
The knock on effect of this has been to allow Putin to smear all those who want a democratic Ukraine free from Russian influence as neo-nazis. The lionisation of Bandera explains his attempt to legitimize the invasion as a campaign of 'denazification', despite the fact that when, during the 2019 Ukrainian elections, all of the major far right Ukrainian parties formed a unified party for the national election, they gained just 2.15% of the vote and failed to secure a single seat in the national parliament. Compare that with the 2009 EU parliament election, where the BNP won 6% of the vote.
I left a message on the band's Facebook page asking them to explain why they were wearing t-shirts that appeared to support Bandera, but after 24 hours, I've had no response, so I've deleted my post.
We can argue about the meaning of 'London Calling' and what Joe Strummer would or wouldn't have said about the lyrical changes, but we can be damn sure that he would not have allowed his song to be utilised by a band that expressed their support for fascists.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=623D11E4

Flex
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Flex »

Ah, milkshake duck moment. Figures.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Flex
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Flex »

Here's the band's response from Facebook:
This night we had some attacks with blaming our band in fascism and nazism. Especially because of our T-shirts with Stepan Bandera’s name.

Stepan Bandera is a hero to many Ukrainians, a symbol of resistance to russian occupation, a symbol of Maidan. He also spent many years in a Nazi concentration camp as a prisoner

We understand and we condemn that some people could do some atrocities while using Bandera’s name.

Up to our band - we recorded the track because we love The Clash and their stance on resistance to oppression. Like them we are anti-fascist and anti-racist. We want to live in a democratic country free from war where everyone is welcome from every race and creed

Anyone who listens to our songs will see that we write about resistance, consumerism and freedom. We sing about drunk drivers and mean oligarchs. We have no time for extremist politics.

SLAVA UKRAYINI!


It'd be interesting to see some translations of their other music.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Silent Majority »

Not knowing what to think here, I'll leave this all aside.
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


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FarawayTowns
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by FarawayTowns »

Flex wrote:
20 Mar 2022, 9:41pm
Just so no one thinks we're totally negligent, it was posted in the politics sub-forum in the thread about the Russia-Ukraine War, that said this might be a nice place to comment as well for people who want to hew more closely to the music than the politics.
I'm the guilty culprit I considered starting it as a new thread but decided against it. Saying that I now believe that starting a new thread was the correct thing to do for the reason that you state.

FarawayTowns
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by FarawayTowns »

bazarboy75 wrote:
21 Mar 2022, 9:31am
it has been blooming on the networks since this weekend

From Billy Bragg page

Yesterday evening I posted a clip of the Ukranian band Beton performing their rewrite of 'London Calling'. According to reports, the song 'Kyiv Calling' was approved by the Clash, with funds raised going to the Free Ukraine Resistance Movement.
After a few hours of discussing the lyrics of the song and whether Joe Strummer would approve of the rewrite, a number of people drew my attention to a series of photographs on the band's Facebook page showing members of the band wearing t-shirts based on the Ramones circular logo.
The word 'Ramones' at the top of the logo had been replaced with the word 'Banderas' and although all of the names within the circle were not visible, the one that was clearly read 'Stepan'. The photos dated from a year ago.
This is deeply troubling. Stepan Bandera was a far-right Ukranian politician who collaborated with the Nazis during the occupation of Ukraine and whose followers were complicit in the Holocaust. That he did these things in the name of Ukranian independence from the Soviet Union has led some present day far right nationalists to adopt his image in their decade long struggle with Russia.
The knock on effect of this has been to allow Putin to smear all those who want a democratic Ukraine free from Russian influence as neo-nazis. The lionisation of Bandera explains his attempt to legitimize the invasion as a campaign of 'denazification', despite the fact that when, during the 2019 Ukrainian elections, all of the major far right Ukrainian parties formed a unified party for the national election, they gained just 2.15% of the vote and failed to secure a single seat in the national parliament. Compare that with the 2009 EU parliament election, where the BNP won 6% of the vote.
I left a message on the band's Facebook page asking them to explain why they were wearing t-shirts that appeared to support Bandera, but after 24 hours, I've had no response, so I've deleted my post.
We can argue about the meaning of 'London Calling' and what Joe Strummer would or wouldn't have said about the lyrical changes, but we can be damn sure that he would not have allowed his song to be utilised by a band that expressed their support for fascists.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=623D11E4
Thanks for highlighting this. TBH it sadly doesn't surprise me. The situation in Ukraine is very complex and following the Russian invasion I can also sadly only foresee an increase in support for a 'freedom fighter' like Bandera and most likely the far right. I also think it's difficult for me to judge who Ukranians should regard as historic heroes whilst at war fighting for their lives as I sit here in my at present 'Safe European Home'.

Low Down Low
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Low Down Low »

I can't find how to link it from facebook, but I see the band has released a further statement clarifying their association with Bandera and acknowledging he is a controversial figure. They talk about it being a complex situation which in some ways I can agree with (c.f. Winston Churchill, for one) but on another level, it's simply a fact he was a racist, right wing fanatic, happy to collaborate with the Nazis when they were picking on minorities who were his fellow citizens, only turning against them once they became invaders impinging on his sense of Ukrainian nationalism. I mean, how complicated do you need to make this stuff?

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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Flex »

Low Down Low wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 4:55pm
I can't find how to link it from facebook, but I see the band has released a further statement clarifying their association with Bandera and acknowledging he is a controversial figure. They talk about it being a complex situation which in some ways I can agree with (c.f. Winston Churchill, for one) but on another level, it's simply a fact he was a racist, right wing fanatic, happy to collaborate with the Nazis when they were picking on minorities who were his fellow citizens, only turning against them once they became invaders impinging on his sense of Ukrainian nationalism. I mean, how complicated do you need to make this stuff?
I've been thinking about this and I dunno, national myths are extremely animating. To take one example, the Democratic Party still holds Jefferson-Jackson dinners that plenty of people I know attend and venerate - hell, I think if we go back in time long enough we can find posts from me and a few other posters here expressing admiration for TJ for his democratic agrarianism (and I'm just picking two fairly representative characters in out national myth-making. We could do this exercise credibly with almost any founding father, most of our presidents and historical figures like Chris Columbus almost all of whom were world-history-making genocidal maniacs).

I think folks doing this veneration are wrongheaded about it, but I don't take an average person's admiration for these types of characters as proof that they themselves are pro-genocide or slavery or what-have-you. They're just extremely wrong to venerate these sorts of people. I dunno, maybe I'm too charitable to people who aren't sufficiently critical of national myth, and I should be condemning bucketloads more people as irreparably genocidal and racist, but I'm uncomfortable being too condemnatory of people falling into a way of thinking that I think is pretty common, bordering on universal (and that I've fallen into myself in the past, being honest about it).

All this is just taking the band's statements and self-professed commitments at face value, of course. Maybe they're actually committed Banderites who support the whole program and just don't want to see their moment in the sun fucked up.

Faux Addendum: Another example that I'll cop to for myself is that I would consider myself influenced by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who I consider a foundational figure in anarchism. He was also a horrible anti-semite. I support - and consider myself part of the intellectual legacy of - proudhon without considering myself aligned with his bigotry. Not as extreme an example as a Ukrainian looking admirably at Bandera, but probably not as far off as I may like to tell myself.

Real Addendum: I guess maybe what I'm getting at is that we should be critical of how folks like them may view Bandera as a national figure to respect, and we would perhaps be wiser to do so in the context of being critical of national mythmaking generally, and interrogating how these sorts of pernicious myths crop up in the context of a national identity that's been shaped both by being a genocidal power itself at times but also as a victim of same, rather than as a debate on what the fuck these three guys in particular are thinking.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Low Down Low
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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Low Down Low »

Flex wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 5:28pm
Low Down Low wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 4:55pm
I can't find how to link it from facebook, but I see the band has released a further statement clarifying their association with Bandera and acknowledging he is a controversial figure. They talk about it being a complex situation which in some ways I can agree with (c.f. Winston Churchill, for one) but on another level, it's simply a fact he was a racist, right wing fanatic, happy to collaborate with the Nazis when they were picking on minorities who were his fellow citizens, only turning against them once they became invaders impinging on his sense of Ukrainian nationalism. I mean, how complicated do you need to make this stuff?
I've been thinking about this and I dunno, national myths are extremely animating. To take one example, the Democratic Party still holds Jefferson-Jackson dinners that plenty of people I know attend and venerate - hell, I think if we go back in time long enough we can find posts from me and a few other posters here expressing admiration for TJ for his democratic agrarianism (and I'm just picking two fairly representative characters in out national myth-making. We could do this exercise credibly with almost any founding father, most of our presidents and historical figures like Chris Columbus almost all of whom were world-history-making genocidal maniacs).

I think folks doing this veneration are wrongheaded about it, but I don't take an average person's admiration for these types of characters as proof that they themselves are pro-genocide or slavery or what-have-you. They're just extremely wrong to venerate these sorts of people. I dunno, maybe I'm too charitable to people who aren't sufficiently critical of national myth, and I should be condemning bucketloads more people as irreparably genocidal and racist, but I'm uncomfortable being too condemnatory of people falling into a way of thinking that I think is pretty common, bordering on universal (and that I've fallen into myself in the past, being honest about it).

All this is just taking the band's statements and self-professed commitments at face value, of course. Maybe they're actually committed Banderites who support the whole program and just don't want to see their moment in the sun fucked up.

Faux Addendum: Another example that I'll cop to for myself is that I would consider myself influenced by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who I consider a foundational figure in anarchism. He was also a horrible anti-semite. I support - and consider myself part of the intellectual legacy of - proudhon without considering myself aligned with his bigotry. Not as extreme an example as a Ukrainian looking admirably at Bandera, but probably not as far off as I may like to tell myself.
I agree with a lot of that, probably all of it. I doubt there's a country in the world where a certain collective amnesia doesn't exist in relation to complex historical figures of their past, I alluded to Churchill above as just one example and you have listed several more. And the part of the band's statement i heartily endorse is the bit about having a debate about this and working through the complexities. In practice, is this really likely to happen, though? And, as you rightly point out, it's the veneration that is the real sticking point. Michael Collins is a venerated hero of my own country's past, a cold blooded murderer, and I'll admit to being conflicted about this, but you won't ever find me going around wearing a t-shirt bearing his image and i would look disdainfully down on those who do.

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Re: Kyiv Calling

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 5:28pm
Low Down Low wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 4:55pm
I can't find how to link it from facebook, but I see the band has released a further statement clarifying their association with Bandera and acknowledging he is a controversial figure. They talk about it being a complex situation which in some ways I can agree with (c.f. Winston Churchill, for one) but on another level, it's simply a fact he was a racist, right wing fanatic, happy to collaborate with the Nazis when they were picking on minorities who were his fellow citizens, only turning against them once they became invaders impinging on his sense of Ukrainian nationalism. I mean, how complicated do you need to make this stuff?
I've been thinking about this and I dunno, national myths are extremely animating. To take one example, the Democratic Party still holds Jefferson-Jackson dinners that plenty of people I know attend and venerate - hell, I think if we go back in time long enough we can find posts from me and a few other posters here expressing admiration for TJ for his democratic agrarianism (and I'm just picking two fairly representative characters in out national myth-making. We could do this exercise credibly with almost any founding father, most of our presidents and historical figures like Chris Columbus almost all of whom were world-history-making genocidal maniacs).

I think folks doing this veneration are wrongheaded about it, but I don't take an average person's admiration for these types of characters as proof that they themselves are pro-genocide or slavery or what-have-you. They're just extremely wrong to venerate these sorts of people. I dunno, maybe I'm too charitable to people who aren't sufficiently critical of national myth, and I should be condemning bucketloads more people as irreparably genocidal and racist, but I'm uncomfortable being too condemnatory of people falling into a way of thinking that I think is pretty common, bordering on universal (and that I've fallen into myself in the past, being honest about it).

All this is just taking the band's statements and self-professed commitments at face value, of course. Maybe they're actually committed Banderites who support the whole program and just don't want to see their moment in the sun fucked up.

Faux Addendum: Another example that I'll cop to for myself is that I would consider myself influenced by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who I consider a foundational figure in anarchism. He was also a horrible anti-semite. I support - and consider myself part of the intellectual legacy of - proudhon without considering myself aligned with his bigotry. Not as extreme an example as a Ukrainian looking admirably at Bandera, but probably not as far off as I may like to tell myself.
This speaks to the problem that (a) our role models or inspiring figures aren't saints; and (b) criticism too often slides into demanding that sainthood and, finding it absent, emphasizes sins. In practice, we compartmentalize and accept contradiction. If we didn't, we'd succumb to nihilism or amoral despair. We make choices and tough ones when it comes to who we draw inspiration from. To be moral beings, we're obliged to constantly interrogate these choices, less to rationalize those choices than to measure principle against experience. Discourse is so important for this, and it sucks when others make it a status thing to disparage you rather than challenge your thinking (i.e., politics as fucking usual). If there were perfect heroes, we wouldn't have to challenge ourselves and what we believe is good and just. It's the essence of living in the real world and not deflecting to abstraction.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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