I have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amThe thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
If and only if i wonder what you would think
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
'
What if you got really high first?
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
occam's razor says you are rightHeston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amThe thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
When the choice is between evil and incompetence, the smarter bet is usually incompetence.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:28pmoccam's razor says you are rightHeston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amThe thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Marky Dread
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
I suggested this before. I don't remember it going down to well.Heston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amThe thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
In all seriousness it can only be the reason surely. From day one of listening ,it did cross my mind and when ever i am in doubt about sabotage you just have to listen to the album again.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:38pmI suggested this before. I don't remember it going down to well.Heston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amThe thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
- Heston
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
Then there's the title. And the track placing of Dictator which is so bad I thought my copy was defective.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:52pmIn all seriousness it can only be the reason surely. From day one of listening ,it did cross my mind and when ever i am in doubt about sabotage you just have to listen to the album again.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:38pmI suggested this before. I don't remember it going down to well.Heston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40am
The thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
I suggested Joe was not some little boy and could of easily stood up to Bernie.Heston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:54pmThen there's the title. And the track placing of Dictator which is so bad I thought my copy was defective.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:52pmIn all seriousness it can only be the reason surely. From day one of listening ,it did cross my mind and when ever i am in doubt about sabotage you just have to listen to the album again.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:38pmI suggested this before. I don't remember it going down to well.Heston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pm
Yeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:03pmHugh, when you say there was a "real possibility" this could have happened, i know you mean in a general sense and that is fine, but we all know in the specific case of the Clash here, there was only ever a remote chance of some form of Clash reunion while Joe was still alive and none whatsoever once he was gone. I don't know who would hate it more between Mick and Paul, my money on Paul by a whisker, but I'm pretty sure they could have had all the money on the planet chucked at them and they'd still have said massive no way and no thanks. Still a worthwhile discussion though and I just think it further underscores what you say about them being the real deal.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amLets forget about the stranglers (maybe another day on another thread :) ) but I am pretty sure this is all about how attached and how close you are to the band. I asked this question specifically here as I wanted an expert ideas and opinions and you cant get better than this website over the topic of the clash and that’s compared to any band website I would say.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
I have no doubt at all and make no mistake that if Paul had carried the clash on himself and had competent song writers for a new album and used those Havana 3am gigs to fill up the track listings with the very best and popular clash songs he would have become successful or at least created longevity for his band. Thank god he didn’t is all I can say and you can tip your hat and salute him for that. I know he did GOB live but he had every right to do that he wrote and sung it.
All the band know of the importance and total respect for the clash legacy, the clash songs, the clash fans and the other band members. If you bring in other elements into the band you change what that band represents and in to something different and you dilute that amazing legacy and history by adding inferior work.
The guys today would know if they reformed with out obviously Joe it would be worth millions to them all, but they don’t, not just in respect for Joe but for respect to the whole clash legacy. I am sure if they didn’t have that respect the reformation would have happened by now.
I asked the forum as I know the people here would care about the clash music and how it would be represented and its something that clash fans have not experienced so I was interested in the opinions
In these current times there is a vast amount of people that would go to clash gigs think of themselves as fans that wouldn’t even be able to tell you the name of the drummer. They may even get the names of Joe and Mick mixed up because they have seen Mick sing SISOSIG
What I am saying they love those songs and even if they would be aware that Joe is no longer the lead singer their attitude would be meh so what they did a fantastic version of Rock the casbah.
For me the clash music goes well beyond being just music and something that another singer could replace their legacy is a masterpiece of the highest order. With all the original members the songs can lift the hairs on the back of my neck and make me well up with emotion.
So the importance of people being that close is the same as this analogy. A great photogragher can take a masterpiece painting take a HD photo of it blow it up. Clean the blemishes and faults and make that picture look better than ever. Gold frame it with glass and put it on the wall of an art museum. He might then claim it to be better or at least as good as the original and someone like me wouldn’t care if it’s the real thing or not and enjoy it for the painting that it isn’t. But an expert Art collector would be horrified to see people enjoy it and claim it be as good.
At the end of the day the clash were always the real deal and there music should be left that way as well. What is really great is what they said - is what they did with no bull shit
The reason that this is mentioned is because it’s a very real possibility that it could have happened so many bands have and are doing this just as Inder mentioned its why its an interesting topic because we are all so lucky it didn’t happen that way for the clash. The great money spinner that this creates is the motivation for other bands don’t believe otherwise so its really a great feeling to see the clash camp stand separate from all that.
My thoughts on my own question is this. I could accept Mick and Joe as the banner of the clash and Joe on his own at a stretch but a definate no for Mick , Paul or topper on their own.
What Joe did with his solo projects regarding the clash songs was fine and respectful with integrity intact imo.
That’s just my opinion and I know shit compared to you Marky and the majority of this site.
But thank you to everyone for replying and especially to all the humour that made me laugh.
Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
That's my thinking. Sabotage suggests a level of musical production competence from Bernie and co. they just didn't have.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:29pmWhen the choice is between evil and incompetence, the smarter bet is usually incompetence.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:28pmoccam's razor says you are rightHeston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pmYeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40am
The thing is Hugh you are talking about putting a band back together when that band hasn't been around for 37 years.
The Stranglers on the other hand have continued and evolved with new members. With Baz Warne being a Strangler longer than Hugh Cornwell being part of the live set-up since 2001. The recent Stranglers album is excellent. So for me I'm more than happy if new members come in and are making great new music in the tradition of the original group.
With The Clash if Cut the Crap had been a solid rock n roll record then things would be viewed much differently. But it wasn't it was a failed attempt at being modern. You can argue about Bernie's input and drum machines, sequencers and so on. But If I had been in The Clash at that point and I'm really talking about Joe here then I would have said fuck off Bernie I'm not putting that out under The Clash name.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
Well deliberately or by accident it was definitely sabotaged.matedog wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 3:22pmThat's my thinking. Sabotage suggests a level of musical production competence from Bernie and co. they just didn't have.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:29pmWhen the choice is between evil and incompetence, the smarter bet is usually incompetence.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:28pmoccam's razor says you are rightHeston wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 2:06pmI have a theory the album was deliberately sabotaged. I'm not alone.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:08pm
Yeah it seems unbelievable. And the opening song was dictator with out of tune horns wtf were they hell bent for the album to fail? i just cant see how those things happen if it was me at work i would be going what the fuck have you done to all my good work.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
- Flex
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
Hard to improve on perfection, obviously
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
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Re: If and only if i wonder what you would think
Low Down Low wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 3:14pmYes bad wording on my behalf. But ill try and explain what i was trying to say. A "Real Possibility" in respect that in these current times all the bands are at it and more importantly the listening audiences are so accepting of it as well. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to start thinking that egos and money could take over.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 12:03pmHugh, when you say there was a "real possibility" this could have happened, i know you mean in a general sense and that is fine, but we all know in the specific case of the Clash here, there was only ever a remote chance of some form of Clash reunion while Joe was still alive and none whatsoever once he was gone. I don't know who would hate it more between Mick and Paul, my money on Paul by a whisker, but I'm pretty sure they could have had all the money on the planet chucked at them and they'd still have said massive no way and no thanks. Still a worthwhile discussion though and I just think it further underscores what you say about them being the real deal.Marky Dread wrote: ↑20 Apr 2022, 6:40amLets forget about the stranglers (maybe another day on another thread :) ) but I am pretty sure this is all about how attached and how close you are to the band. I asked this question specifically here as I wanted an expert ideas and opinions and you cant get better than this website over the topic of the clash and that’s compared to any band website I would say.NoMoreHugh wrote: ↑19 Apr 2022, 12:56pmI was chatting to Heston on another thread and this scenario came to my mind and was really interested what the forum thought
No right or wrong answer to this
If Paul reformed the clash today on his own and employed 3 very competent singers and musicians that were all unknown how do you think you would take that news?
Do you think you would feel excited and think its better than nothing or think i am right up for this.
I am really interested what an opinion would be.
I have no doubt at all and make no mistake that if Paul had carried the clash on himself and had competent song writers for a new album and used those Havana 3am gigs to fill up the track listings with the very best and popular clash songs he would have become successful or at least created longevity for his band. Thank god he didn’t is all I can say and you can tip your hat and salute him for that. I know he did GOB live but he had every right to do that he wrote and sung it.
All the band know of the importance and total respect for the clash legacy, the clash songs, the clash fans and the other band members. If you bring in other elements into the band you change what that band represents and in to something different and you dilute that amazing legacy and history by adding inferior work.
The guys today would know if they reformed with out obviously Joe it would be worth millions to them all, but they don’t, not just in respect for Joe but for respect to the whole clash legacy. I am sure if they didn’t have that respect the reformation would have happened by now.
I asked the forum as I know the people here would care about the clash music and how it would be represented and its something that clash fans have not experienced so I was interested in the opinions
In these current times there is a vast amount of people that would go to clash gigs think of themselves as fans that wouldn’t even be able to tell you the name of the drummer. They may even get the names of Joe and Mick mixed up because they have seen Mick sing SISOSIG
What I am saying they love those songs and even if they would be aware that Joe is no longer the lead singer their attitude would be meh so what they did a fantastic version of Rock the casbah.
For me the clash music goes well beyond being just music and something that another singer could replace their legacy is a masterpiece of the highest order. With all the original members the songs can lift the hairs on the back of my neck and make me well up with emotion.
So the importance of people being that close is the same as this analogy. A great photogragher can take a masterpiece painting take a HD photo of it blow it up. Clean the blemishes and faults and make that picture look better than ever. Gold frame it with glass and put it on the wall of an art museum. He might then claim it to be better or at least as good as the original and someone like me wouldn’t care if it’s the real thing or not and enjoy it for the painting that it isn’t. But an expert Art collector would be horrified to see people enjoy it and claim it be as good.
At the end of the day the clash were always the real deal and there music should be left that way as well. What is really great is what they said - is what they did with no bull shit
The reason that this is mentioned is because it’s a very real possibility that it could have happened so many bands have and are doing this just as Inder mentioned its why its an interesting topic because we are all so lucky it didn’t happen that way for the clash. The great money spinner that this creates is the motivation for other bands don’t believe otherwise so its really a great feeling to see the clash camp stand separate from all that.
My thoughts on my own question is this. I could accept Mick and Joe as the banner of the clash and Joe on his own at a stretch but a definate no for Mick , Paul or topper on their own.
What Joe did with his solo projects regarding the clash songs was fine and respectful with integrity intact imo.
That’s just my opinion and I know shit compared to you Marky and the majority of this site.
But thank you to everyone for replying and especially to all the humour that made me laugh.
What Icarisone said about the uniqueness of the singing voices of mick and Joe echoed my thoughts exactly but yeah i am with you completely and have total respect for them all for doing the right thing.