Ghetto Defendant.

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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Chairman Ralph »

I downloaded it, too, along with some of your recent reworkings -- can't wait to hear 'em. Going back to Ginsberg, I've posed this on Chris's board, so I may as well do it here -- what should we do with him, in general, and GD, the song, in particular, in light of the MeToo era? Especially, of course, in light of his notoriously full-throated defense of NAMBLA.

Seems to me there's three options: A) Take the track off the album, and assume it doesn't exist. Find some alternate track or other to replace it. As we all know, there's enough of them out there. B) Take out the Allen Ginsberg vocals, since the track is technically great enough without them, and can live without them. The average bear who hangs out at the watercooler discussing these things won't know the difference, right?

C) Keep the AG bits, but have someone else rerecord them, and call it good. Of course, that's problematic, since they're his lines, and you'd presumably have to him pay royalties, which brings up one more -- D) Rewrite the AG bits, and get someone new in to put them down.

Anyway, that's what comes to mind. So tell me, Marky, Mr. Mixmaster, what would you do at the controls? Or maybe you already did (taking the AG bits out). But I'd love to hear your take on it.

Marky Dread
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Marky Dread »

I think Ginsberg is a horrible character. However it was clear that in 1982 that none of us knew (I certainly didn't) of his sexual preferences etc.

Joe was enamored by the the beat poets Jack Kerouac et all.

So he (they) were probably thrilled first backing him on Capital Air at Bond International Casino. Then having him do those vocals on Ghetto Defendant.

Those vocals have been out on that album for a long time which sold an awful lot of records/Tapes/CDs etc.

Bit pointless doing anything now and explaining why you were doing it.

Personally I like his vocals they work really well on the track. But that certainly doesn't mean I have any time for him. If it was 1982 all over again and the band new more about his activities then I would hope they would've chosen somebody else for that vocal part.

Removing them now only draws more attention to him and proves nothing to my mind.

Having Ginsberg on the record doesn't mean the band support any of his values.

So I chose to have "iron serenity" on the subject. ;)
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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Chairman Ralph »

Personally I like his vocals they work really well on the track. But that certainly doesn't mean I have any time for him. If it was 1982 all over again and the band new more about his activities then I would hope they would've chosen somebody else for that vocal part.

Removing them now only draws more attention to him and proves nothing to my mind.

Having Ginsberg on the record doesn't mean the band support any of his values.

So I chose to have "iron serenity" on the subject. ;)
Yeah, very nuanced, very measured, indeed. :mrgreen:

I don't remember hearing anything about Ginsberg's proclivities, either, back in the day. Of course, back then, news cycles turned around a lot slower than they do now, so that's not a surprise. I agree that if the band had known a bit more about them, they might well have gone with someone else.

That said, I feel less bad about razzing the guy the way than I may have, when I went seeking his autograph before I saw him live at my alma mater, as I note here, on my website:
Not that I felt particularly obliged to show him automatic deference, given how long he'd been around by then, but you know what I mean.

I like his vocals, too, actually, though I now have to ask -- if he hadn't been around to do them, who else would you have nominated for the job? Who else could have stepped in, and handled that particular assignment?

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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Marky Dread »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:36pm
Personally I like his vocals they work really well on the track. But that certainly doesn't mean I have any time for him. If it was 1982 all over again and the band new more about his activities then I would hope they would've chosen somebody else for that vocal part.

Removing them now only draws more attention to him and proves nothing to my mind.

Having Ginsberg on the record doesn't mean the band support any of his values.

So I chose to have "iron serenity" on the subject. ;)
Yeah, very nuanced, very measured, indeed. :mrgreen:

I don't remember hearing anything about Ginsberg's proclivities, either, back in the day. Of course, back then, news cycles turned around a lot slower than they do now, so that's not a surprise. I agree that if the band had known a bit more about them, they might well have gone with someone else.

That said, I feel less bad about razzing the guy the way than I may have, when I went seeking his autograph before I saw him live at my alma mater, as I note here, on my website:
Not that I felt particularly obliged to show him automatic deference, given how long he'd been around by then, but you know what I mean.

I like his vocals, too, actually, though I now have to ask -- if he hadn't been around to do them, who else would you have nominated for the job? Who else could have stepped in, and handled that particular assignment?
Someone who was as politically minded as Ginsberg was and also someone suited to that whole vibe. Maybe Francis Ford Coppola could've been the guy. But like having Robert De Niro on Red Angel Dragnet it would've no doubt have been a costly exercise.
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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Chairman Ralph »

Someone who was as politically minded as Ginsberg was and also someone suited to that whole vibe. Maybe Francis Ford Coppola could've been the guy. But like having Robert De Niro on Red Angel Dragnet it would've no doubt have been a costly exercise.
I'm sure it would have been -- he definitely doesn't skimp on spending, as the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now proves, but I doubt he'd work for less than whatever he deems his minimum going rate.

But since we're playing this parlor game of "What if," I myself would prefer as politically minded, but musical -- hell, someone like Rankin' Roger, for instance! He was around at the time, anyway, and his vocals on the alternate Red Angel Dragnet, and extended Rock The Casbah, lift both songs to several different levels. So maybe somebody like that.

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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by danbot »

Bill Burroughs comes to mind as an alternate, although he got a few skeletons as well.

Marky Dread
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Marky Dread »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 8:35pm
Someone who was as politically minded as Ginsberg was and also someone suited to that whole vibe. Maybe Francis Ford Coppola could've been the guy. But like having Robert De Niro on Red Angel Dragnet it would've no doubt have been a costly exercise.
I'm sure it would have been -- he definitely doesn't skimp on spending, as the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now proves, but I doubt he'd work for less than whatever he deems his minimum going rate.

But since we're playing this parlor game of "What if," I myself would prefer as politically minded, but musical -- hell, someone like Rankin' Roger, for instance! He was around at the time, anyway, and his vocals on the alternate Red Angel Dragnet, and extended Rock The Casbah, lift both songs to several different levels. So maybe somebody like that.
Ranking Roger is great but hardly suited to that track. His toasting would change the whole dynamic of the song. Roger's vocal would've been uplifting and hardly what a songs about heroin addiction required. I like his vocal on "Casbah" where it's fun but I think it works less well on "Dragnet" where the subject is more serious and about murder.

Ghetto Defendant works with that deep raspy voice of Ginsberg so someone else with a similar deep voice would be required.
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Low Down Low
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Low Down Low »

Leonard Cohen would have to be the man for me. No idea what he might have thought of the Clash, but that's a collaboration I'd have given at least one digit to see.

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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

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Low Down Low wrote:
07 Jul 2022, 6:01am
Leonard Cohen would have to be the man for me. No idea what he might have thought of the Clash, but that's a collaboration I'd have given at least one digit to see.
Definitely got that vocal sound.
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Marky Dread
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Marky Dread »

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Jul 2022, 7:08am
Low Down Low wrote:
07 Jul 2022, 6:01am
Leonard Cohen would have to be the man for me. No idea what he might have thought of the Clash, but that's a collaboration I'd have given at least one digit to see.
Definitely got that vocal sound.
I guess Kosmo with a sore throat would do. :shifty:
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No fuchsias for you.

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Mark^Bastard
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Mark^Bastard »

Paul should have just been the lead singer

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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Kory »

Mark^Bastard wrote:
07 Jul 2022, 9:34pm
Paul should have just been the lead singer
If it would provide us a whole album of RADs, then yes.
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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Chairman Ralph »

Ranking Roger is great but hardly suited to that track. His toasting would change the whole dynamic of the song. Roger's vocal would've been uplifting and hardly what a songs about heroin addiction required. I like his vocal on "Casbah" where it's fun but I think it works less well on "Dragnet" where the subject is more serious and about murder.

Ghetto Defendant works with that deep raspy voice of Ginsberg so someone else with a similar deep voice would be required.
His toasting is what he's known for, but he also sang in a more straightforward style when required. Maybe they could have gotten there in a couple more takes -- at any rate, I find it more listenable than Paul's ventriloquist dummy sort of monotone on that track, which is hard going, at times.

Of course, all this is moot, since the band opted for the choice that graced CR.

Now, Leonard Cohen, that's an intriguing choice indeed for Ghetto Defendant's alternate vocals. That's one I can get behind.

Burroughs, if I'm not mistaken, did a couple albums as some type of otherworldly narrative presence (The Priest They Called Him), so he could conceivably have worked, too.
If it would provide us a whole album of RADs, then yes.
Or maybe a whole album of Fingerpoppins, if Bernie had promoted Paul to the lead vocalist slot, as he threatened to do in the final dying embers of the CTC era. :mrgreen:

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Re: Ghetto Defendant.

Post by Kory »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
10 Jul 2022, 8:48pm
Or maybe a whole album of Fingerpoppins, if Bernie had promoted Paul to the lead vocalist slot, as he threatened to do in the final dying embers of the CTC era. :mrgreen:
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