I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pmI've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 4:51pmI’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 12:31pmI think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 11:37amI always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?Marky Dread wrote: ↑03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".
The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.
The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
Topper with the Moors Murderers
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topperville
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:16pmI agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pmI've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 4:51pmI’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 12:31pmI think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
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topperville
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
That’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:25pmDo you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:16pmI agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pmI've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 4:51pmI’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
It was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:28pmThat’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:25pmDo you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:16pmI agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pmI've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.
You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
Not sure this would have worked as well since half the idiots who sincerely use swastikas think that's how it's drawn anyway.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pmIf they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:41pmIt was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:28pmThat’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:25pmDo you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:16pmI agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.
You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
Indeed maybe a little less offensive.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 3:38pmWhen I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:41pmIt was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:28pmThat’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…Marky Dread wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:25pmDo you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.topperville wrote: ↑04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.
You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.
Yeah -- I remember thinking at the time I saw it, "I get it. Too much to explain, otherwise." I'm having the same feeling right now, as I'm getting ready to go a Johnny Thunders/Heartbreakers-related artwork, and I've gathered a bunch of pictures for it -- including one of a bare-chested JT, with a giant silver ring on his middle finger, and a huge Stone-ish type scarf slung around his neck...and a swastika armband. Which I'll likely end up leaving out, because -- too much to explain.Indeed maybe a little less offensive..
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
I just checked pictures of Johnny wearing his swastika t shirt and Sid wearing his one. I was sure I read somewhere that Johnny gave Sid that t shirt but looking at the pictures the t shirt Johnny wore had a much bigger swastika than the one Sid wore.Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 4:42pmWhen I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.Yeah -- I remember thinking at the time I saw it, "I get it. Too much to explain, otherwise." I'm having the same feeling right now, as I'm getting ready to go a Johnny Thunders/Heartbreakers-related artwork, and I've gathered a bunch of pictures for it -- including one of a bare-chested JT, with a giant silver ring on his middle finger, and a huge Stone-ish type scarf slung around his neck...and a swastika armband. Which I'll likely end up leaving out, because -- too much to explain.Indeed maybe a little less offensive..
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 7:44pmThis is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
You can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 7:44pmThis is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Low Down Low
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
I'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.Marky Dread wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 5:18amYou can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 7:44pmThis is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
Collecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".Low Down Low wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 6:29amI'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.Marky Dread wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 5:18amYou can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 7:44pmThis is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.
Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.
It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.
When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Low Down Low
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers
I remember a pal of mine had a German uniform as a kid which we were all jealous of, though it was a wehrmacht Africa Korps one and did look rather cool. I think using the gear for a very effective anti war song like The Call Up was appropriate, though I can't say I was ever a huge fan of the military look they often sported around 82 and the combat rock era. Didn't have a huge problem with it, just thought they had better looks.Marky Dread wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 6:47amCollecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".Low Down Low wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 6:29amI'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.Marky Dread wrote: ↑06 Jul 2022, 5:18amYou can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.Chairman Ralph wrote: ↑05 Jul 2022, 7:44pmThis is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.
I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.
But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.
Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.
It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.
When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.