Topper with the Moors Murderers

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Low Down Low
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
He's so often the villain of the piece, i like it when Bernie is the good guy for a change!

I can understand the whole mentality up to a point, how it must have been for teenagers growing up in the 60s and 70s constantly hearing their elders bang on about the war and calling them idlers and layabouts because they couldn't get work even though the politicians were tanking the economy into the ground. I can see there would be pushback against that and,inevitably, you will get those who go beyond the line. I'm still asking myself wtf Paul was thinking donning that nazi uniform in 78, though!

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 6:12pm
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
He's so often the villain of the piece, i like it when Bernie is the good guy for a change!

I can understand the whole mentality up to a point, how it must have been for teenagers growing up in the 60s and 70s constantly hearing their elders bang on about the war and calling them idlers and layabouts because they couldn't get work even though the politicians were tanking the economy into the ground. I can see there would be pushback against that and,inevitably, you will get those who go beyond the line. I'm still asking myself wtf Paul was thinking donning that nazi uniform in 78, though!
Dressing up and being stupid is the obvious answer. Think Keith Moon and even comedian Freddy Star. But yeah in the same year as RAR it looks really dumb.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Low Down Low
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Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:08am

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 6:18pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 6:12pm
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
He's so often the villain of the piece, i like it when Bernie is the good guy for a change!

I can understand the whole mentality up to a point, how it must have been for teenagers growing up in the 60s and 70s constantly hearing their elders bang on about the war and calling them idlers and layabouts because they couldn't get work even though the politicians were tanking the economy into the ground. I can see there would be pushback against that and,inevitably, you will get those who go beyond the line. I'm still asking myself wtf Paul was thinking donning that nazi uniform in 78, though!
Dressing up and being stupid is the obvious answer. Think Keith Moon and even comedian Freddy Star. But yeah in the same year as RAR it looks really dumb.
Yeah, that's the thing. The RAR Victoria Park gig was April and I'm guessing the Paul pics appeared in March when Sounds did a special feature on punk and its relationship with fascism and fascist symbols. I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that issue just to see the context in which those pics appeared, just seems a totally bizarre thing to do given the RAR gig was imminent.

topperville
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by topperville »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:56pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Posts: 115975
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:01pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:56pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm


That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Yup, he was a showman and a brat surrounded by far more intellectually and creatively adept people. But that's not to downplay McL's incredible capacity to lie so shamelessly and compellingly. That's a genuine skill. A big reason why more people know the name Malcolm McLaren than Bernard Rhodes is because McL was so much better skilled at bullshitting, convincing others he had a lot more going on upstairs than he actually did.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:07pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:01pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:56pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am


I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Yup, he was a showman and a brat surrounded by far more intellectually and creatively adept people. But that's not to downplay McL's incredible capacity to lie so shamelessly and compellingly. That's a genuine skill. A big reason why more people know the name Malcolm McLaren than Bernard Rhodes is because McL was so much better skilled at bullshitting, convincing others he had a lot more going on upstairs than he actually did.
A blagger a charlatan a genius.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

NoMoreHugh
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Posts: 659
Joined: 17 Dec 2012, 7:24pm
Location: Home is a black leather jacket fitting sweetly to my brain

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by NoMoreHugh »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:21pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:07pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:01pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:56pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm


I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Yup, he was a showman and a brat surrounded by far more intellectually and creatively adept people. But that's not to downplay McL's incredible capacity to lie so shamelessly and compellingly. That's a genuine skill. A big reason why more people know the name Malcolm McLaren than Bernard Rhodes is because McL was so much better skilled at bullshitting, convincing others he had a lot more going on upstairs than he actually did.
A blagger a charlatan a genius.
Not to forget also that Malcolm Mclaren was very good at re-writing history to suit the situation and not a trait thats missing all over the music business. After the Grundy incident he was apparently shouting and screaming at the band you have blown it we are finished now . Only to later find out that it ended up being the biggest break through that they needed and from there on he sells that story as hes master plan when in truth he was all in a panic that it was all over.

So a little bit of luck but i do like your description of A blagger a charlatan a genius. You cant produce all of that with out being a genius as well.

NoMoreHugh
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Location: Home is a black leather jacket fitting sweetly to my brain

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by NoMoreHugh »

Oh talking of Maclaren and the pistols has anyone watched the disney Pistols thats on at the moment i saw it advertised the other day. Also is it worth watching ?

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

NoMoreHugh wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 2:59pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:21pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:07pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:01pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:56pm


That's how I took McL's designs from that period—it was about razing the present before you could build something better. Tho I doubt McL had even the slightest idea (or care) about that "something better." It was ideological cover to act out.
As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Yup, he was a showman and a brat surrounded by far more intellectually and creatively adept people. But that's not to downplay McL's incredible capacity to lie so shamelessly and compellingly. That's a genuine skill. A big reason why more people know the name Malcolm McLaren than Bernard Rhodes is because McL was so much better skilled at bullshitting, convincing others he had a lot more going on upstairs than he actually did.
A blagger a charlatan a genius.
Not to forget also that Malcolm Mclaren was very good at re-writing history to suit the situation and not a trait thats missing all over the music business. After the Grundy incident he was apparently shouting and screaming at the band you have blown it we are finished now . Only to later find out that it ended up being the biggest break through that they needed and from there on he sells that story as hes master plan when in truth he was all in a panic that it was all over.

So a little bit of luck but i do like your description of A blagger a charlatan a genius. You cant produce all of that with out being a genius as well.
The genius is his realisation that he could turn disaster into success.

As to "Pistol" we have discussed it for the last month or so in the "Sex Pustols" thread. Yes it's worth watching.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

NoMoreHugh
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 659
Joined: 17 Dec 2012, 7:24pm
Location: Home is a black leather jacket fitting sweetly to my brain

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by NoMoreHugh »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 3:33pm
NoMoreHugh wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 2:59pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:21pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:07pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 1:01pm


As we know Malcolm was a magpie. He would happily steal ideas especially from his business partners Vivienne and Bernie. I think also people like Jamie Reid played a big part with Situationism and the Suburban Press. But really Malcolm was at his best in playing the miscreant and causing chaos.
Yup, he was a showman and a brat surrounded by far more intellectually and creatively adept people. But that's not to downplay McL's incredible capacity to lie so shamelessly and compellingly. That's a genuine skill. A big reason why more people know the name Malcolm McLaren than Bernard Rhodes is because McL was so much better skilled at bullshitting, convincing others he had a lot more going on upstairs than he actually did.
A blagger a charlatan a genius.
Not to forget also that Malcolm Mclaren was very good at re-writing history to suit the situation and not a trait thats missing all over the music business. After the Grundy incident he was apparently shouting and screaming at the band you have blown it we are finished now . Only to later find out that it ended up being the biggest break through that they needed and from there on he sells that story as hes master plan when in truth he was all in a panic that it was all over.

So a little bit of luck but i do like your description of A blagger a charlatan a genius. You cant produce all of that with out being a genius as well.
The genius is his realisation that he could turn disaster into success.

As to "Pistol" we have discussed it for the last month or so in the "Sex Pustols" thread. Yes it's worth watching.
Ah ok thanks Marky i shall have a search and a read

topperville
Dirty Punk
Posts: 123
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 12:01pm

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by topperville »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.

Marky Dread
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Messiah of the Milk Bar
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Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm
Low Down Low wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 3:42pm
Ok, I'm not suggesting this is a big deal or anything. Fair enough Chrissie being American maybe didn't get the rawness of the whole Moors murderer thing, but that could hardly apply to putting a white hood over your head. It's just that one image I find jarring, but we all make mistakes.

Incidentally, wasn't it Mick or Bernie, or possibly both, who drew a line at the punk festival gig and refused to help or lend gear to bands parading nazi symbols? Not surprising, I guess, given their heritage, but still something I found admirable.
That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside down is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects. The very idea of the Christ and the swastika pictured together along with the postage stamp with the Queen suggest to me that all three were hated iconography. But the shirt itself was a provocation to the moral majority.

But if it means anti religion, anti nazi, anti monarchy to you then I say so be it mate. And it's a great reply to those who are offended by such things.

When when you put the t shirt alongside it's bedfellows from SEX then you can clearly see the idea is to offend.
Last edited by Marky Dread on 04 Jul 2022, 5:19pm, edited 1 time in total.
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