Topper with the Moors Murderers

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topperville
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by topperville »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Jul 2022, 5:50pm


That was Bernie. He refused to let the original Suzie and the Banshees use the Clash amps at the 100 club due to Sid Vicious having a swastika on his t-shirt. Sid had called Bernie "a mean old jew".

The swastika and iron cross etc go further back in rock n roll than Johnny Thunders. The t-shirt Johnny wore was the same one Sid later wore and also Stiv Bators. The original punk idea of shocking the older generation and laughing at taboos was in some respects a positive move. But the swastika being a symbol of fear and hatred was an ill conceived idea and a bad move.

The "Destroy" t-shirt that Vivienne and Malcolm designed
with christ on the cross printed upside down and the swastika overlaid on the image with a UK postage stamp was an incredibly bold statement to make. Attacking those things that were sacrosanct.
I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 11:37am


I always assumed that the “Destroy” shirt had the meaning of destroy nazis, destroy religion and destroy the monarchy?
I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.
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Curfews have been curbing
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topperville
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by topperville »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:25pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:31pm


I think it's more than open to interpretation. Vivienne used the swastika on a lot of designs. Malcolm's philosophy was "destroy in order to create".
I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.
That’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:28pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:25pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 4:51pm


I’ve got several Destroy t-shirts and an Anarchy shirt with upside down luftwaffe badges (with swastikas as part). On the occasions when I’ve worn them out in public over the last 40 odd years I have been challenged at times by people. However, on explaining the destroy nazis slant of the Destroy shirt and the badges being upside down on the Anarchy shirt meaning anti nazi the discussions have ended. Maybe that’s what McLaren/Westwood intended or maybe not. But in my head that’s what it always was meant to be.
I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.
That’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…
It was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.

You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Kory
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Kory »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm
If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse.
Not sure this would have worked as well since half the idiots who sincerely use swastikas think that's how it's drawn anyway.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:41pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:28pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:25pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:00pm


I've owned a couple but long gone now. However I don't think the initial design was an anti nazi stance. Christ being printed on the shirt deliberately upside is a shock tactic. Same with the swastika. If they (Vivienne) had wanted an anti nazi stance then she could've pictured the swastika on fire or in reverse. I personally feel the design was simply to shock by using taboo subjects.
I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.
That’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…
It was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.

You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 3:38pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:41pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:28pm
Marky Dread wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:25pm
topperville wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 5:16pm


I agree about the shock tactic aspect totally. Perhaps it was just me trying to justify wearing the gear. My argument always worked though, so perhaps they were cleverer than we think? However, if they produced the Sid swastika T-shirt a la Paris then I’m clearly wrong. But was that a seditionaries shirt?
Do you mean the red t shirt with the swastika that Sid wore? If so that wasn't a seditiionaries t shirt. Johnny Thunders gave that to Sid. And Johnny can be seen wearing it in the Dolls long before Seditiionaries.
That’s the one! No excuse for wearing that apart from to shock…
It was worn by Sid in the jewish quarter of Paris. To get that exact reaction. When I was younger I thought how cool Sid looked in that sequence from the Swindle movie. And the Something Else cartoon 7" picture sleeve.
Without ever giving thought to just how offensive it actually was. The French picture sleeve had the swastika omitted yet here in the UK the single went top ten and no ban whatsoever.

You couldn't get God Save the Queen with ransom note lettering in high street shops but Sid with a swastika no problem. Go figure.
When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.
Indeed maybe a little less offensive.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Chairman Ralph
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Chairman Ralph »

When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.
Indeed maybe a little less offensive..
Yeah -- I remember thinking at the time I saw it, "I get it. Too much to explain, otherwise." I'm having the same feeling right now, as I'm getting ready to go a Johnny Thunders/Heartbreakers-related artwork, and I've gathered a bunch of pictures for it -- including one of a bare-chested JT, with a giant silver ring on his middle finger, and a huge Stone-ish type scarf slung around his neck...and a swastika armband. Which I'll likely end up leaving out, because -- too much to explain. :mrgreen:

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 4:42pm
When I first saw Sid & Nancy, I immediately noticed that Cox changed it to a hammer & sickle shirt.
Indeed maybe a little less offensive..
Yeah -- I remember thinking at the time I saw it, "I get it. Too much to explain, otherwise." I'm having the same feeling right now, as I'm getting ready to go a Johnny Thunders/Heartbreakers-related artwork, and I've gathered a bunch of pictures for it -- including one of a bare-chested JT, with a giant silver ring on his middle finger, and a huge Stone-ish type scarf slung around his neck...and a swastika armband. Which I'll likely end up leaving out, because -- too much to explain. :mrgreen:
I just checked pictures of Johnny wearing his swastika t shirt and Sid wearing his one. I was sure I read somewhere that Johnny gave Sid that t shirt but looking at the pictures the t shirt Johnny wore had a much bigger swastika than the one Sid wore.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Chairman Ralph »

This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:44pm
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
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tumblr_myulhpcm8t1r4lh02o1_500.jpg
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Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:44pm
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
You can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.

But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

Marky Dread wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 5:18am
Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:44pm
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
You can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.

But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
I'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Low Down Low wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 6:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 5:18am
Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:44pm
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
You can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.

But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
I'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.
Collecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".

Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.

Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.

It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.

When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Low Down Low
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

Marky Dread wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 6:47am
Low Down Low wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 6:29am
Marky Dread wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 5:18am
Chairman Ralph wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 7:44pm
This is the photo I was referencing in my last post, to give you a better idea of what I mean.

I got it off a Dolls/Thunders photo page on Facebook -- I don't think I've seen that particular shot anywhere else. Don't have any details on the provenance of it (venue, gig), because I don't recall seeing any for that one. I usually copy and paste those in when I do.

But it's a great shot, except for -- well -- that thing on his arm. Aside from that, it's just about perfect, from a rock 'n' roll standpoint.
You can see the offensive t shirt that Johnny wore is not the same as Sid's shirt. I've got pictures of Stiv Bators later wearing Sid's shirt with the bona fide unwashed blood stains.

But the Nazi insignia goes way back in rock and roll The Stooges wore the Iron Cross. Brian Jones dressed up in nazi gear. There's a thread from around 7 years ago where we previously discussed this.
I'd be interested to learn more about when and why this particular culture and imagery was subsumed into music. Punk, of course, borrowed liberally from glam as well as other movements that preceded it so hardly surprising it would incorporate the nazi baggage too. The desire to provoke shock and outrage is obviously a prime and easily understandable motive, but I wonder if it was the same for all. Some people seemed to think it was just a cool thing to do. I remember reading somewhere that Lemmy was a rather keen collector of nazi outfits and regalia, I don't get the impression there was much else going on there but that he just liked the stuff visually, but I'd have to read up more on it.
Collecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".

Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.

Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.

It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.

When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.
I remember a pal of mine had a German uniform as a kid which we were all jealous of, though it was a wehrmacht Africa Korps one and did look rather cool. I think using the gear for a very effective anti war song like The Call Up was appropriate, though I can't say I was ever a huge fan of the military look they often sported around 82 and the combat rock era. Didn't have a huge problem with it, just thought they had better looks.

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