Topper with the Moors Murderers

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Chairman Ralph
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Chairman Ralph »

Collecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".

Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.

Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.

It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.

When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.
Ron Asheton and I had several lengthy discussions about all of those issues when I interviewed for my Stooges retrospective (published in the spring of '95). He always made it very clear that he wasn't a Nazi or a fascist, but just fascinated by that particular era -- he began buying a lot of it as a preteen, which is where the initial momentum for his collecting began.

Ron's comeback to all those who criticized him for wearing Nazi gear was, "Aren't you glad that we won WW II, so that a freak like me can wear this stuff?" To him, it was just part and parcel of an aesthetic, something to piss off the Woodstock Generation, basically.

But he acknowledged that there were many times when it backfired -- he mentioned a certain type of Luger holster that he wore with his white officer's coat, but every cop in Ann Arbor stopped and questioned him the minute they spotted it. He said the resulting run-ins got "too weird," even for his blood, so he ended up putting it away.

There were also, of course, the physical run-ins, such as a guy who took a swing and cold-cocked him, as soon as he saw whatever outfit he was wearing that night. The next thing Ron knew, he came around to see his brother "just whaling away on the guy, kicking his ass." I said, "Well, obviously, what seemed like just another costume to you didn't always come across that way to somebody else."
I remember a pal of mine had a German uniform as a kid which we were all jealous of, though it was a wehrmacht Africa Korps one and did look rather cool. I think using the gear for a very effective anti war song like The Call Up was appropriate, though I can't say I was ever a huge fan of the military look they often sported around 82 and the combat rock era. Didn't have a huge problem with it, just thought they had better looks.
I thought it was appropriate for that video, too, but it wouldn't have upset me if they'd retired it afterwards. For such an avowedly anti-militaristic band to wear that kind of stuff struck me as a contradiction -- one that their critics used as a stick to beat them with.

I remember Bill Holdship bringing that up when I called CREEM and gave him a hard time over some of the statements he made in his October '84 article ("They Want To Spoil The Party, So They'll Stay"). He felt that, at best, it muddled the message, and at worst, seemed like an example of "rebel chic," as he called it.

Obviously, none of those issues stopped a generation of hippies from wearing those green Army jackets -- and artists, like a certain J. Lennon, for instance, in the Live In New York City video -- so I guess the connotations of the threads would come down to whatever impressions they conjure up for you. But I agree, there were better and sharper ones in their arsenal than all that green camo drag that characterizes so much of the CR era.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

Chairman Ralph wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 8:30pm
Collecting war memorabilia doesn't mean you have any sympathies with a particular idealism or anything. For me I trace it back to being a kid watching war movies and reading war comics, playing with toy soldiers and dressing up. Singer Chris Farlowe has a huge collection of war memorabilia and it's his clobber that The Clash are wearing in the video for "The Call Up".

Obviously with punk and nazi regalia then it's an extremely fine line between the idea of shocking someone and defining your stance that it's nothing more than just a symbol and we shouldn't fear it and give it further power.

Wearing the swastika is really akin to wearing a t shirt with an image of Pol Pot. The atrocities that occurred during wars will forever be a stain on humanity. It must be treated with respect and we owe it those who lost so much to treat this subject sympathetically.

It's easy when you're a young naive rebellious person to believe in the coolness of art and imagery. But the hurt others have suffered at the sight of those images can never be forgotten.

When did this first appear in rock n roll is difficult to pinpoint but as soon as it went widespread with magazines and later televisual coverage and the images could be seen as visceral.
Ron Asheton and I had several lengthy discussions about all of those issues when I interviewed for my Stooges retrospective (published in the spring of '95). He always made it very clear that he wasn't a Nazi or a fascist, but just fascinated by that particular era -- he began buying a lot of it as a preteen, which is where the initial momentum for his collecting began.

Ron's comeback to all those who criticized him for wearing Nazi gear was, "Aren't you glad that we won WW II, so that a freak like me can wear this stuff?" To him, it was just part and parcel of an aesthetic, something to piss off the Woodstock Generation, basically.

But he acknowledged that there were many times when it backfired -- he mentioned a certain type of Luger holster that he wore with his white officer's coat, but every cop in Ann Arbor stopped and questioned him the minute they spotted it. He said the resulting run-ins got "too weird," even for his blood, so he ended up putting it away.

There were also, of course, the physical run-ins, such as a guy who took a swing and cold-cocked him, as soon as he saw whatever outfit he was wearing that night. The next thing Ron knew, he came around to see his brother "just whaling away on the guy, kicking his ass." I said, "Well, obviously, what seemed like just another costume to you didn't always come across that way to somebody else."
I remember a pal of mine had a German uniform as a kid which we were all jealous of, though it was a wehrmacht Africa Korps one and did look rather cool. I think using the gear for a very effective anti war song like The Call Up was appropriate, though I can't say I was ever a huge fan of the military look they often sported around 82 and the combat rock era. Didn't have a huge problem with it, just thought they had better looks.
I thought it was appropriate for that video, too, but it wouldn't have upset me if they'd retired it afterwards. For such an avowedly anti-militaristic band to wear that kind of stuff struck me as a contradiction -- one that their critics used as a stick to beat them with.

I remember Bill Holdship bringing that up when I called CREEM and gave him a hard time over some of the statements he made in his October '84 article ("They Want To Spoil The Party, So They'll Stay"). He felt that, at best, it muddled the message, and at worst, seemed like an example of "rebel chic," as he called it.

Obviously, none of those issues stopped a generation of hippies from wearing those green Army jackets -- and artists, like a certain J. Lennon, for instance, in the Live In New York City video -- so I guess the connotations of the threads would come down to whatever impressions they conjure up for you. But I agree, there were better and sharper ones in their arsenal than all that green camo drag that characterizes so much of the CR era.
I agree with you there, definitely ok for the video but more problematic outside of that. I sought out that article you mentioned, it's available on Graham's BMC site, and it's an interesting read. Joe's published answer to the military garb question is a bit odd, but otherwise it's a pretty lucid and engaging interview when you compare it to some of the other ones he was doing around that time, which no doubt you engaged with for the book! What really stands out to me at this remove is that a critic would have a discussion like that with a member of a rock band. Regardless of the effectiveness of Joe's or the Clash's politics, I just can't conceive of a musician being grilled in that way about such subjects (excepting maybe bono or bruce) which just serves as a reminder of the impact they made, the standards they were expected to maintain. And the writer not getting Sandinista! That stands out with me too!

As for the combat gear, I do remember how the Army Surplus stores were all the rage for a few years in the 80s, we couldn't get enough of that gear, and now I am noticing that fashion coming back into vogue past year or so, a little more polished and upmarket perhaps, but definitely the same combat look arrived full circle.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by APACHES67 »

Marky Dread wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 5:59am
Topper had nothing to do with the Moors Murderers project.
Hi Marky, I've read the comments. I don't know the truth, but I understand that some former members of The Moors Murderers band like Chrissie Hynde and Steve Strange feel very embarrassed to remember and talk about the subject, in fact if they can they avoid talking or say they don't remember well. Steve Strange is dead, but when he was alive he preferred not to give details on the subject of Moors Murderers. Steve Strange and Tex Exile were also beaten by the public for being part of the Moors Murderers. Tex Exile, aka Anthony Doughty, claimed that both he and Topper Headon played there in 1978 albeit for a very short time. Topper has let it be known through Selena that he has never been involved with the Moors Murderers ... or maybe he ... maybe Topper is also embarrassed just like Chrissie Hynde and Steve Strange. For me the matter is not yet resolved. For me there is a 50% chance that Topper was in.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

APACHES67 wrote:
07 Jul 2022, 6:16pm
Marky Dread wrote:
02 Jul 2022, 5:59am
Topper had nothing to do with the Moors Murderers project.
Hi Marky, I've read the comments. I don't know the truth, but I understand that some former members of The Moors Murderers band like Chrissie Hynde and Steve Strange feel very embarrassed to remember and talk about the subject, in fact if they can they avoid talking or say they don't remember well. Steve Strange is dead, but when he was alive he preferred not to give details on the subject of Moors Murderers. Steve Strange and Tex Exile were also beaten by the public for being part of the Moors Murderers. Tex Exile, aka Anthony Doughty, claimed that both he and Topper Headon played there in 1978 albeit for a very short time. Topper has let it be known through Selena that he has never been involved with the Moors Murderers ... or maybe he ... maybe Topper is also embarrassed just like Chrissie Hynde and Steve Strange. For me the matter is not yet resolved. For me there is a 50% chance that Topper was in.
Nick Holmes who was the roadie for the band Eater played drums on the four tracks recorded as The Moors Murderers.

I expect that the fact Topper's real name is Nick Headon is where the confusion comes from.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by APACHES67 »

Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by APACHES67 »

Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:10am
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.
Dear Low Down Low THESE ARE THE BAND MEMBERS "THE MOORS MURDERERS ..... 1978-1978
Steve Strange--- Vocals, later to become, not only a complete wanker, but also leader of the New Romantic movement and his group VISAGE
Chrissy Hynde---Guitars, later to become THE PRETENDERS
Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH
Tex---Bass
If you don't want to understand that Topper his the one borrowed from The Clash and not the drum, then that's your problem...the grammar rules about the comma are clear.
Other Point: "Tex Exile doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies", yes i agree, infact i wrote from the beginning there are 50% of chances that Topper really played (rehearsals) with The Moors Murderers, i'm not saying the contrary.
Other point: Topper is not mentioned from 1977 to '78(like you say) , but from '78 to 78 , read with attention the lines i've copied from Punk 77.
Last point: You say " Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely" ... sorry but i must contest this too...Stewart Copeland at the time was known as Topper, but as you can see, he was involved with The Moors Murderes and there are no photos, no newspapers articles, no witnesses, we know he was involved only thanks to his diaries.
If you really want to understand the topic don't forget an important thing: The Moors Murderers caused great embarrassment to several band members, that's why they covered their heads, they were rejected by the media, they are reluctant to talk about the band and give details, they were even beaten from the public. Maybe Topper too like Chrissie is embarassed. 50%

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Flex »

Common understanding is there are probably at least a few recordings they did at some point, right? Would be real interesting to hear them. I find groups like this - which are the dead ends of a certain kind of aesthetic logic - quite interesting.
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Flex wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 5:46pm
Common understanding is there are probably at least a few recordings they did at some point, right? Would be real interesting to hear them. I find groups like this - which are the dead ends of a certain kind of aesthetic logic - quite interesting.
I've heard two of the tracks "Free Hindley" and "Ten Commandments" and they are crap.

Dave Goodman (RIP) said the drummer was Nick Holmes the roadie for Eater and that's good enough for me.
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Forces have been looting
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No fuchsias for you.

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 5:29pm
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:10am
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.
Dear Low Down Low THESE ARE THE BAND MEMBERS "THE MOORS MURDERERS ..... 1978-1978
Steve Strange--- Vocals, later to become, not only a complete wanker, but also leader of the New Romantic movement and his group VISAGE
Chrissy Hynde---Guitars, later to become THE PRETENDERS
Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH
Tex---Bass
If you don't want to understand that Topper his the one borrowed from The Clash and not the drum, then that's your problem...the grammar rules about the comma are clear.
Other Point: "Tex Exile doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies", yes i agree, infact i wrote from the beginning there are 50% of chances that Topper really played (rehearsals) with The Moors Murderers, i'm not saying the contrary.
Other point: Topper is not mentioned from 1977 to '78(like you say) , but from '78 to 78 , read with attention the lines i've copied from Punk 77.
Last point: You say " Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely" ... sorry but i must contest this too...Stewart Copeland at the time was known as Topper, but as you can see, he was involved with The Moors Murderes and there are no photos, no newspapers articles, no witnesses, we know he was involved only thanks to his diaries.
If you really want to understand the topic don't forget an important thing: The Moors Murderers caused great embarrassment to several band members, that's why they covered their heads, they were rejected by the media, they are reluctant to talk about the band and give details, they were even beaten from the public. Maybe Topper too like Chrissie is embarassed. 50%
It's Tex Axile not Tex Exile by the way. A play on tax exile.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Low Down Low »

APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 5:29pm
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:10am
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.
Dear Low Down Low THESE ARE THE BAND MEMBERS "THE MOORS MURDERERS ..... 1978-1978
Steve Strange--- Vocals, later to become, not only a complete wanker, but also leader of the New Romantic movement and his group VISAGE
Chrissy Hynde---Guitars, later to become THE PRETENDERS
Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH
Tex---Bass
If you don't want to understand that Topper his the one borrowed from The Clash and not the drum, then that's your problem...the grammar rules about the comma are clear.
Other Point: "Tex Exile doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies", yes i agree, infact i wrote from the beginning there are 50% of chances that Topper really played (rehearsals) with The Moors Murderers, i'm not saying the contrary.
Other point: Topper is not mentioned from 1977 to '78(like you say) , but from '78 to 78 , read with attention the lines i've copied from Punk 77.
Last point: You say " Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely" ... sorry but i must contest this too...Stewart Copeland at the time was known as Topper, but as you can see, he was involved with The Moors Murderes and there are no photos, no newspapers articles, no witnesses, we know he was involved only thanks to his diaries.
If you really want to understand the topic don't forget an important thing: The Moors Murderers caused great embarrassment to several band members, that's why they covered their heads, they were rejected by the media, they are reluctant to talk about the band and give details, they were even beaten from the public. Maybe Topper too like Chrissie is embarassed. 50%
Fair enough, mate. I'm not looking for an argument about it really, we can agree to disagree. I just think if topper had had genuine significant involvement i.e. proper full rehearsals, there'd be at least more than one witness testimony about it. Reading that history of the band, it's not just that Stewart Copeland freely talks about his involvement, it's that several others talk about it as well. John Harlow seems very credible and detailed in his account and says it's possible Tex Axile was there at some point, but doesn't seem convinced about it. He doesn't mention Topper at any point at all. No one else who talks about it does. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course, but makes it far less likely in my view. Anyway, I enjoyed reading and learning about this band so I'm thankful to you for bringing it to my attention!

Marky Dread
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

Here's a clip of the band filmed by an Italian tv company. With a track based around the Peter Gunn riff.

Steve Strange - vocals
Chrissie Hynde -Guitar
Eve Goddard (Adam Ants wife at the time) - Backing vocals
Rob Egan (Rusty Egan's relative) - Drums
John Harlow - Bass

Rehearsal from the Railway arches in South London.
Last edited by Marky Dread on 09 Jul 2022, 6:00am, edited 1 time in total.
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APACHES67
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Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by APACHES67 »

Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 6:30pm
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 5:29pm
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:10am
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 7:10am
On the page that speculates on toppers supposed involvement, it says:

"Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH"

Which might suggest it was a question of lending a bit of kit on some occasion rather than any concrete personal involvement for which there doesn't seem the remotest bit of evidence whatsoever. It could be topper leant something to a mate or contact without even knowing what the exact purpose was. Even that much is doubtful, I think. Far likelier, as marky suggests, it was a nominative mix up or, given there was obviously quite a bit of speculation at the time as to the identities of the various band members, someone tossed toppers name out there out of malice or as a joke. Who knows, but a 50% chance topper was involved? Seems more like 0.005% to me. Interesting bit of punk history all the same!
Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.
Dear Low Down Low THESE ARE THE BAND MEMBERS "THE MOORS MURDERERS ..... 1978-1978
Steve Strange--- Vocals, later to become, not only a complete wanker, but also leader of the New Romantic movement and his group VISAGE
Chrissy Hynde---Guitars, later to become THE PRETENDERS
Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH
Tex---Bass
If you don't want to understand that Topper his the one borrowed from The Clash and not the drum, then that's your problem...the grammar rules about the comma are clear.
Other Point: "Tex Exile doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies", yes i agree, infact i wrote from the beginning there are 50% of chances that Topper really played (rehearsals) with The Moors Murderers, i'm not saying the contrary.
Other point: Topper is not mentioned from 1977 to '78(like you say) , but from '78 to 78 , read with attention the lines i've copied from Punk 77.
Last point: You say " Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely" ... sorry but i must contest this too...Stewart Copeland at the time was known as Topper, but as you can see, he was involved with The Moors Murderes and there are no photos, no newspapers articles, no witnesses, we know he was involved only thanks to his diaries.
If you really want to understand the topic don't forget an important thing: The Moors Murderers caused great embarrassment to several band members, that's why they covered their heads, they were rejected by the media, they are reluctant to talk about the band and give details, they were even beaten from the public. Maybe Topper too like Chrissie is embarassed. 50%
Fair enough, mate. I'm not looking for an argument about it really, we can agree to disagree. I just think if topper had had genuine significant involvement i.e. proper full rehearsals, there'd be at least more than one witness testimony about it. Reading that history of the band, it's not just that Stewart Copeland freely talks about his involvement, it's that several others talk about it as well. John Harlow seems very credible and detailed in his account and says it's possible Tex Axile was there at some point, but doesn't seem convinced about it. He doesn't mention Topper at any point at all. No one else who talks about it does. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course, but makes it far less likely in my view. Anyway, I enjoyed reading and learning about this band so I'm thankful to you for bringing it to my attention!
Thanks to you Marky, i'm too very interested to know more about it.... from the beginning i wrote it's not sure Topper was involved, by the way i remain with my opinion to give 50% chances , the reason of it is the strong embarassement of the band members. Right John Harlow talks about it at the end "...The band has got a myth about it. Oooohhh did they exist? Who were those idiots in this thing? Was there a record.. same old bullshit. But all the people who were involved didn't say anything. Chrissie didn't; I didn't; Vince didn’t and Steve dropped it like a hot potato when things got better for him" , that's why it's hard to find mentions about Topper , but anyway we have one(Tex Exile) , no one at the moment can say he said the truth or the false. I think if Topper was there must be for very short time, maybe one month ,maybe one week, just the time to rehearse and to reject the project for the adversity the name band was providing.

Marky Dread
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Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: Topper with the Moors Murderers

Post by Marky Dread »

APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 8:25pm
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 6:30pm
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 5:29pm
Low Down Low wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:10am
APACHES67 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 9:23am


Hi Low Down Low, as you can see is "Topper Headon - drums, borrowed from The Clash" ,that means is Topper Headon the one borrowed . If was the drum should be : "Topper Headon, drums borrowed from The Clash"....you wrongly understood the comma. So For me 50% is the right even because there is a witness Tex Exile bass player
Sure, what's a little comma between friends? It doesn't prove anything either way really.

Here's what the article says about Tex Exile:

"Tex has refused to comment for Punk77 and the question is whether Zelig like he's managed to insert himself into punk history as there are a number of errors scattered through his biography that render them more than a little suspect not least why the hell would Topper Headon offer up to play drums. The details on his site were as below but the site has since gone."

Doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies, does it, but the line about why topper would have wanted to get involved in any significant way is the one I go back to. We're talking about Oct 77 to at the latest Feb 78 here, a pretty busy time for the Clash. Makes no sense to me for topper to be bothering with something that doesn't seem any remote kind of fit in the first place. If topper had appeared in person and even played, then the most certain thing is that there would be more testimonies than Texs one and much more detailed too. Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely. So while nothings impossible, just very highly implausible if you ask me.
Dear Low Down Low THESE ARE THE BAND MEMBERS "THE MOORS MURDERERS ..... 1978-1978
Steve Strange--- Vocals, later to become, not only a complete wanker, but also leader of the New Romantic movement and his group VISAGE
Chrissy Hynde---Guitars, later to become THE PRETENDERS
Topper Headon---Drums, borrowed from THE CLASH
Tex---Bass
If you don't want to understand that Topper his the one borrowed from The Clash and not the drum, then that's your problem...the grammar rules about the comma are clear.
Other Point: "Tex Exile doesn't seem the most rigorous of testimonies", yes i agree, infact i wrote from the beginning there are 50% of chances that Topper really played (rehearsals) with The Moors Murderers, i'm not saying the contrary.
Other point: Topper is not mentioned from 1977 to '78(like you say) , but from '78 to 78 , read with attention the lines i've copied from Punk 77.
Last point: You say " Topper was at least as big a name as Chrissie at that point, bigger surely, and yet, the several music mag features done on the band somehow missed it entirely" ... sorry but i must contest this too...Stewart Copeland at the time was known as Topper, but as you can see, he was involved with The Moors Murderes and there are no photos, no newspapers articles, no witnesses, we know he was involved only thanks to his diaries.
If you really want to understand the topic don't forget an important thing: The Moors Murderers caused great embarrassment to several band members, that's why they covered their heads, they were rejected by the media, they are reluctant to talk about the band and give details, they were even beaten from the public. Maybe Topper too like Chrissie is embarassed. 50%
Fair enough, mate. I'm not looking for an argument about it really, we can agree to disagree. I just think if topper had had genuine significant involvement i.e. proper full rehearsals, there'd be at least more than one witness testimony about it. Reading that history of the band, it's not just that Stewart Copeland freely talks about his involvement, it's that several others talk about it as well. John Harlow seems very credible and detailed in his account and says it's possible Tex Axile was there at some point, but doesn't seem convinced about it. He doesn't mention Topper at any point at all. No one else who talks about it does. That doesn't mean it's impossible, of course, but makes it far less likely in my view. Anyway, I enjoyed reading and learning about this band so I'm thankful to you for bringing it to my attention!
Thanks to you Marky, i'm too very interested to know more about it.... from the beginning i wrote it's not sure Topper was involved, by the way i remain with my opinion to give 50% chances , the reason of it is the strong embarassement of the band members. Right John Harlow talks about it at the end "...The band has got a myth about it. Oooohhh did they exist? Who were those idiots in this thing? Was there a record.. same old bullshit. But all the people who were involved didn't say anything. Chrissie didn't; I didn't; Vince didn’t and Steve dropped it like a hot potato when things got better for him" , that's why it's hard to find mentions about Topper , but anyway we have one(Tex Exile) , no one at the moment can say he said the truth or the false. I think if Topper was there must be for very short time, maybe one month ,maybe one week, just the time to rehearse and to reject the project for the adversity the name band was providing.
The band did have a revolving number of drummers coming and going so of course anything is possible mate.

The reason I believe that Dave Goodman said it was Nick Holmes the Eater roadie is because Dave knew that band extremely well and had produced their records.

I think other members of the band that became the Sick Things may also have been involved.

It's possible that Topper attended an early rehearsal before the band even had a name so wasn't aware of the controversy who knows. But he is definitely not in any of the pictures of the band that I've seen. The tape my mate played me in the 80s didn't sound anything like Topper's drumming. The tape was rough sounding I thought it was rubbish. I think the tape came from someone who worked for Lee Wood at the time.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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