Must not forget the Dolls, who were probably more responsible for the visual image in the UK more than anyone. Remember, until Bowie saw them in NYC in '72, he and Bolan were still locked into the hippie look/vibe, so I credit Bowie with bringing the glam look to the UK (and later the US, but by then it was a bandwagon-hopping thing).Marky Dread wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:28pmI think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:12pmDoes it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.Wolter wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:06pmI think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
Music opinion/question of the week...
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muppet hi fi
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Strong shoes is what we got and when they're hot they're hot!
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Yeah, that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around (again, with only limited exposure). In terms of style, it seems to run the gamut from rock n roll revival to, say, arty Roxy Music. What unifies it as a genre, then? It seems like a more flamboyant, gender fluidity is the common element.Marky Dread wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:28pmI think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:12pmDoes it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.Wolter wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:06pmI think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Nothing really unifies it as a genre as such. If you say clothes then just like with punk you will fall wide of the mark. I suppose if you think of punk and post punk the glam scene is a very simillar idea with two distinct styles of music one moving within the pop culture and the other staring in from the outside throwing shit at it. I've said it over and over clothes don't make music. It's always a broad church but I think being a part of something new in a time and space is the key. When you play any style of music past it's era you will be labelled as retro. Seriously It's all rock n' roll to me with a new name attached to it. All great music stems back to something even bands like Wire needed to start somewhere to strip back from if you please.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:50pmYeah, that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around (again, with only limited exposure). In terms of style, it seems to run the gamut from rock n roll revival to, say, arty Roxy Music. What unifies it as a genre, then? It seems like a more flamboyant, gender fluidity is the common element.Marky Dread wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:28pmI think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:12pmDoes it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.Wolter wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 6:06pmI think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Wittgenstein's family resemblances concept might be useful here. That's where you have overlapping similarities and resemblances but no feature common to all instances. So you might have say A and B in common between Band 1 and Band 2, but you might have nothing in common between Band 1 and Band 3, while Band 2 and Band 3 have X and Y in common. Yet all would count as iterations of glam because of the overall network of overlapping traits. Instead of seeking out the essence that unites all glam, you can just look for the traits held in common to greater or lesser degrees. That also means that you might have some bands that check off more boxes than others. So Roxy Music for example might check off the fashion box but be relatively distant as they had more of an avant-garde approach to the music.
(I use band name placeholders because I'm no expert at glam.)
(I use band name placeholders because I'm no expert at glam.)
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
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— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
This is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Punk has to be about attitude and that covers a massive spectrum in music. Even within the same scene NY punk I find little in the way of smilarity musically between The Heartbreakers and Patti Smith group other than attitude and a love of Rock n' Roll.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 7:27pmThis is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Yep, that's what I'm saying. The Ramones and the Voidoids have little in common. Both are punk. There isn't one essential trait held in common by all instances of punk.Marky Dread wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 7:45pmPunk has to be about attitude and that covers a massive spectrum in music. Even within the same scene NY punk I find little in the way of smilarity musically between The Heartbreakers and Patti Smith group other than attitude and a love of Rock n' Roll.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 7:27pmThis is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
However, that said, the class of '76-78 sounded more alike than the NY punks did. Even then, though, you've got weird examples like the Spex.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Really following the tangent now, but initial American punk—New York and L.A. had true scenes—is notable for how goddamned diverse the sounds were. They were unified, if only in people's imagination, by a rejection of mainstream music and a desire to embrace amateurism and experimentation. And the fact that they were playing the same bars. As scenes, they seemed to jump straight to post-punk. As Gene said, the UK had a lot more of a coherent sound, with bands working off the Pistols/Ramones template.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
Wolston Manor is open for business again this summer.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board
Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
I probably shouldn't like the Stones, but I love most of their work until the 80s.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
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muppet hi fi
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
What, after playing all that horrible negro music early on?
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
I don’t care for their blues covers. I don’t doubt they’re decent players. I just find 90% of electric blues played by white Englishmen in the 60s to be kind of dull.muppet hi fi wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:05pmWhat, after playing all that horrible negro music early on?
I really don’t want to have a debate though. This is personal taste and you’re not going to convince me otherwise.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
I’ve always thought Punk was more of an extreme of the Mod scene, in clothes and music, than any other genre.
However can clearly see and hear the other genre influence to varying degrees.
However can clearly see and hear the other genre influence to varying degrees.
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muppet hi fi
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...
No worries, man. Wasn't going to argue anyway. Was mostly just having a go at Hes (cuz he always deserves one ), but I fully get where you cats are coming from anyway.Wolter wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:18pmI don’t care for their blues covers. I don’t doubt they’re decent players. I just find 90% of electric blues played by white Englishmen in the 60s to be kind of dull.muppet hi fi wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:05pmWhat, after playing all that horrible negro music early on?
I really don’t want to have a debate though. This is personal taste and you’re not going to convince me otherwise.
Strong shoes is what we got and when they're hot they're hot!
- Marky Dread and his fabulous Screaming Blue Messiahs
- Marky Dread and his fabulous Screaming Blue Messiahs