Exactly.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 11:21amIt's fascinating and unsettling the hoops that people will go thru to deny that kind of horrific behaviour. The last couple years, Canada has been experiencing protests to removes statues of the first prime minister, John A. Macdonald, because he was a white supremacist. Not just a racist, but someone who saw Canada's glorious future as requiring the extermination of indigenous people. The efforts that people will make to somehow soften his stance would, ironically, be rejected by the man himself. He was a loud and proud white supremacist. But people, assuming they aren't racists, think it would tarnish Canada's sense of self to remove the statues, that, perversely, we acknowledge his evil only be leaving up the monuments. In the past, I tried to make the argument that if we learned that he raped children, we'd be much more ready to take down the statues. But I'm less certain of that now—when some want a particular conclusion, the arguments will be twisted in perverse ways.JennyB wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 11:07amYeah. Part 2 is on tonight, and I am not going to watch. When I worked in child abuse prevention, I used to use him as the cornerstone for a stereotypical pedophile, and people would get very angry at me. Believe the victims, unless the allegations are against someone you are a fan of, I guess. I am hoping that this changes some minds. The fact that the Jackson estate released a concert from Budapest on YouTube last night to be played at the same time the doc aired seems especially desperate to me.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 10:54amI don't think I can watch. I don't need to be persuaded of his guilt and immersing myself (that's the wrong phrase, but I can't think of anything better) would only make me feel worse about the world, I think.
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Most lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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They always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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It’s so baffling how many of the show’s cast were actual WW2 POWs, German jews, or both. And it was so close to the war. It would be like a wacky series about Gitmo starring Muslim Americans who had experienced hate crimes came out in a few years.Flex wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:42pmThey always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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I smell an Emmy.Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:47pmIt’s so baffling how many of the show’s cast were actual WW2 POWs, German jews, or both. And it was so close to the war. It would be like a wacky series about Gitmo starring Muslim Americans who had experienced hate crimes came out in a few years.Flex wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:42pmThey always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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I chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:47pmIt’s so baffling how many of the show’s cast were actual WW2 POWs, German jews, or both. And it was so close to the war. It would be like a wacky series about Gitmo starring Muslim Americans who had experienced hate crimes came out in a few years.Flex wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:42pmThey always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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That’s definitely a possibility. It just still seems so crazy that such a devastating event could be normalized within two decades to banal 60s comedy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:58pmI chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:47pmIt’s so baffling how many of the show’s cast were actual WW2 POWs, German jews, or both. And it was so close to the war. It would be like a wacky series about Gitmo starring Muslim Americans who had experienced hate crimes came out in a few years.Flex wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:42pmThey always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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Started watching Lucile’s last night (have to wait until the missus goes away today to carry on Ozark).
Anyway Lucile’s is on the real telly and we obviously started mid series.
Can anyone tell me what the fuck is going on?
I thought it was a cop / murder series and it was loosely was but obviously there is also a long running story where some guy has been kidnapped and his Dad is being blackmailed and the Dad is blaming Lucifer???
Anyway Lucile’s is on the real telly and we obviously started mid series.
Can anyone tell me what the fuck is going on?
I thought it was a cop / murder series and it was loosely was but obviously there is also a long running story where some guy has been kidnapped and his Dad is being blackmailed and the Dad is blaming Lucifer???
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Conventional historical wisdom—which said friend disagrees with vehemently—has it that the Holocaust didn't become a grand narrative of Jewishness until after the Six-Day War. Prior to that it was mostly a private, whispered thing, with an emphasis on mourning and personal failures, and wondering how human beings could do that to each other. Afterwards, it becomes a rallying point of sorts—this fucking happened and it cannot happen again. So the idea of making light of Nazis and prison camps is a bit easier to fathom—it wasn't quite as taboo. And it reinforced that American victory culture that grew up around the Cold War. If all that is valid, then our incomprehension is the result of growing up after the repositioning of the Holocaust in historical memory. Maybe. I'm not sure I fully buy that. As partial rebuttal to that, check out the Mad version of the show: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhzfkfmav0cts ... 8.pdf?dl=0 They clearly saw it for the horrible taste that it was. That last page is a jawdropper.Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 2:15pmThat’s definitely a possibility. It just still seems so crazy that such a devastating event could be normalized within two decades to banal 60s comedy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:58pmI chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:47pmIt’s so baffling how many of the show’s cast were actual WW2 POWs, German jews, or both. And it was so close to the war. It would be like a wacky series about Gitmo starring Muslim Americans who had experienced hate crimes came out in a few years.Flex wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:42pmThey always used to play hogan's heroes reruns during Rockies rain delays when I was a kid. Bad tv, bad baseball. It was the perfect match.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:04pmMost lunch hours, when I'm at home, I watch Hogan's Heroes. It's not even remotely entertaining, but it's such a bizarre form of offence that I keep coming back. It might be the greatest unintentional cringe comedy of all time. So it's lunchtime and I'm watching. Maybe I'm expecting an epiphany to explain it all, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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I think it was more during the Eichmann trial than the Six-Day War.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 3:27pmConventional historical wisdom—which said friend disagrees with vehemently—has it that the Holocaust didn't become a grand narrative of Jewishness until after the Six-Day War. Prior to that it was mostly a private, whispered thing, with an emphasis on mourning and personal failures, and wondering how human beings could do that to each other. Afterwards, it becomes a rallying point of sorts—this fucking happened and it cannot happen again. So the idea of making light of Nazis and prison camps is a bit easier to fathom—it wasn't quite as taboo. And it reinforced that American victory culture that grew up around the Cold War. If all that is valid, then our incomprehension is the result of growing up after the repositioning of the Holocaust in historical memory. Maybe. I'm not sure I fully buy that. As partial rebuttal to that, check out the Mad version of the show: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhzfkfmav0cts ... 8.pdf?dl=0 They clearly saw it for the horrible taste that it was. That last page is a jawdropper.Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 2:15pmThat’s definitely a possibility. It just still seems so crazy that such a devastating event could be normalized within two decades to banal 60s comedy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:58pmI chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).
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I've started the IT Crowd—I'm not liking it as much as Toast, but it shows some promise, 4 episodes in. I will say it's kind of weird watching a show and waiting for the first anti-trans joke to roll around.
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oh boy is there one coming
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My friend argues that the private, whispered shame thing is vastly overblown and the anxious/defiant stance was there from the start. I'm not well-read enough to counter him, only that the stuff I have read uses 1967 as the watershed. I've also seen argued that it was the mini-series Holocaust in the late 70s that was greatest alterer of cultural consciousness. After that, few could plead ignorance. I have a memory of watching it as a kid, which I now wonder whether my parents gave a shit at all what I was consuming. I would have been about nine and watching by myself this tv show with people being gunned down in pits and beaten and abused. What the fuck, mom? (Answer: Sixth of six kids. The needle had swung from overprotection to laissez faire after that many kids.)JennyB wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 4:24pmI think it was more during the Eichmann trial than the Six-Day War.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 3:27pmConventional historical wisdom—which said friend disagrees with vehemently—has it that the Holocaust didn't become a grand narrative of Jewishness until after the Six-Day War. Prior to that it was mostly a private, whispered thing, with an emphasis on mourning and personal failures, and wondering how human beings could do that to each other. Afterwards, it becomes a rallying point of sorts—this fucking happened and it cannot happen again. So the idea of making light of Nazis and prison camps is a bit easier to fathom—it wasn't quite as taboo. And it reinforced that American victory culture that grew up around the Cold War. If all that is valid, then our incomprehension is the result of growing up after the repositioning of the Holocaust in historical memory. Maybe. I'm not sure I fully buy that. As partial rebuttal to that, check out the Mad version of the show: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhzfkfmav0cts ... 8.pdf?dl=0 They clearly saw it for the horrible taste that it was. That last page is a jawdropper.Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 2:15pmThat’s definitely a possibility. It just still seems so crazy that such a devastating event could be normalized within two decades to banal 60s comedy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:58pmI chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).
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Whoa.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 3:27pmConventional historical wisdom—which said friend disagrees with vehemently—has it that the Holocaust didn't become a grand narrative of Jewishness until after the Six-Day War. Prior to that it was mostly a private, whispered thing, with an emphasis on mourning and personal failures, and wondering how human beings could do that to each other. Afterwards, it becomes a rallying point of sorts—this fucking happened and it cannot happen again. So the idea of making light of Nazis and prison camps is a bit easier to fathom—it wasn't quite as taboo. And it reinforced that American victory culture that grew up around the Cold War. If all that is valid, then our incomprehension is the result of growing up after the repositioning of the Holocaust in historical memory. Maybe. I'm not sure I fully buy that. As partial rebuttal to that, check out the Mad version of the show: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhzfkfmav0cts ... 8.pdf?dl=0 They clearly saw it for the horrible taste that it was. That last page is a jawdropper.Wolter wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 2:15pmThat’s definitely a possibility. It just still seems so crazy that such a devastating event could be normalized within two decades to banal 60s comedy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑04 Mar 2019, 1:58pmI chatted with my Jewish historian friend about that and he thinks that their participation was not out of a Jewish identity—at least not directly—but of a German one (except for Clary, of course). In a weird way, he theorized, it was a way of German/Austrian Jews to reclaim their nationality after it had been stolen by the Nazis. It's still fucking weird to me, but his explanation does make some sense (tho it's still entirely speculative).
Of course, the vast majority of Mad’s artists and writers were Jewish.
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I once read an article that compared Mad's formative period to the New York Intellectuals, a group of mostly Jewish public intellectuals in the 1940s and 50s, anti-Stalinist left and liberal (e.g., Lionel Trilling, Irving Howe, Harold Rosenberg, Dwight Macdonald). Of course the NYI were hostile to popular culture—it was debased kitsch, evidence of the masses being morons in need of supervision—whereas Mad dealt with a lot of the same concerns—conformity, hypocrisy, ignorance, phony patriotism—but was a hell of a lot more incisive when it came to popular culture because it didn't just dismiss it. Deep down, Mad treated popular culture as something pretty damned important. But, yeah, there was more than one way for Jewish writers to contribute to public discourse, and Mad had a much bigger audience and greater long-lasting effect on young minds.
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