Music opinion/question of the week...

General music discussion.
Silent Majority
Singer-Songwriter Nancy
Posts: 18702
Joined: 10 Nov 2008, 8:28pm
Location: South Londoner in the Midlands.

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Silent Majority »

With the obvious disclaimer that I'm most likely blind to much of the issue because of my positionality, I'm really very far from fashionable on this one. I love music mixing up and not only was rock n roll a synthesis of different people's music, all the musics that went into it couldn't help but be influenced by all different cultures. The blues and gospel have more European parents than is usually talked about. Hillbilly, jigs, jazz, reels, polka, indigenous African music, south American rhythms, French folk songs, 17th century protestant hymns were all integral parts of the blues.

Power structures are going to fuck us up but the best music comes from the bottom up. We've more in common than that which divides us.
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

matedog
User avatar
Purveyor of Hoyistic Thought
Posts: 25803
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: 1995

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by matedog »

Inder maybe a comment awhile back that really opened my mind about "appropriation" debates. Basically "appropriation" takes real issues like racism, imperialism, and capitalism, and obfuscates these issues by combining them all together under one moniker and then throwing in the completely asinine and hollow "authenticity" debate in the mix. That might not be exactly what Inder was going for, but that's where it led me.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58886
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Marky Dread »

I'll take this from what Maj said above. "We've more in common than that which divides us".

This is my attitude lets work with the positives.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35802
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Flex »

I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

WestwayKid
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 6704
Joined: 20 Sep 2017, 8:22am
Location: Mill-e-wah-que

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by WestwayKid »

Looking at early rock and roll - I think it needs to be mentioned that while many white artists made it big covering songs written by African-American artists - they also opened up that music in a way that couldn't have been done otherwise. I think Pat Boone is a pretty icky person - but his "whitewashed" versions of songs by guys like Fats Domino served as a gateway drug for many white Americans. I'm not saying this makes anything right - but when a culture is marginalized - half of the battle is just being heard. I don't think I ever would have heard of Willie Dixon had I not first heard the Stones' version of Little Red Rooster.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble

matedog
User avatar
Purveyor of Hoyistic Thought
Posts: 25803
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: 1995

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by matedog »

Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
It all leads back to the "authenticity" debate. Just because someone is African American, does that qualify them to listen to, judge, and/or create hip hop? Shouldn't class/socioeconomic background qualify as well? Would a rich African American be better qualified to participate in hip hop culture than a poor white person who lives in the inner city? And furthermore, who is qualified to judge the judgers? I surely shouldn't be able to dictate whether someone is qualified to judge hip hop (to continue the same example).

It gets muddy really quickly and distracts from the real issues.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Heston »

I don't care what key it's in, where it's come from, where it's been...
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

JennyB
User avatar
Mossad Van Driver
Posts: 22257
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:13pm
Location: Moranjortsville

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by JennyB »

Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
I agree with you. And I think there has to be accounting for the fact that Paul grew up in that community. Reggae was the music he grew up with and listened to. I understand the criticism when Gwen Stefani did her Harajuku Girl thing. That seemed exploitative to me. But I think that's apples and oranges. Oh, another I thought of - people criticized Paul Simon for Graceland, and I can understand the criticism. But on the other hand, he exposed African music to people who would have otherwise never heard it. So it's an interesting conundrum.
Got a Rake? Sure!

IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M

" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Heston »

JennyB wrote:
02 May 2019, 2:18pm
Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
I agree with you. And I think there has to be accounting for the fact that Paul grew up in that community. Reggae was the music he grew up with and listened to. I understand the criticism when Gwen Stefani did her Harajuku Girl thing. That seemed exploitative to me. But I think that's apples and oranges. Oh, another I thought of - people criticized Paul Simon for Graceland, and I can understand the criticism. But on the other hand, he exposed African music to people who would have otherwise never heard it. So it's an interesting conundrum.
With all respect, does it even really matter that Paul grew up in a West Indian community? I grew up in a poor but predominately white area but as soon as I picked a guitar up I wanted to play reggae and ska (along with other genres) purely because I loved the music. Should there ever really be a restriction on that?
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35802
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Flex »

Heston wrote:
02 May 2019, 3:21pm
With all respect, does it even really matter that Paul grew up in a West Indian community? I grew up in a poor but predominately white area but as soon as I picked a guitar up I wanted to play reggae and ska (along with other genres) purely because I loved the music. Should there ever really be a restriction on that?
Generally no, I say. It shouldn't be an issue. I think we can tell the specific cases (say, Vanilla Ice) that feel appropriative.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Wolter
User avatar
Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
Posts: 55432
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Wolter »

Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 3:25pm
Heston wrote:
02 May 2019, 3:21pm
With all respect, does it even really matter that Paul grew up in a West Indian community? I grew up in a poor but predominately white area but as soon as I picked a guitar up I wanted to play reggae and ska (along with other genres) purely because I loved the music. Should there ever really be a restriction on that?
Generally no, I say. It shouldn't be an issue. I think we can tell the specific cases (say, Vanilla Ice) that feel appropriative.
I think most people looking at something in good faith can tell when an artist loves and cherishes a genre and when they are trying to make a buck. And when it’s a little of both.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

JennyB
User avatar
Mossad Van Driver
Posts: 22257
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:13pm
Location: Moranjortsville

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by JennyB »

Heston wrote:
02 May 2019, 3:21pm
JennyB wrote:
02 May 2019, 2:18pm
Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
I agree with you. And I think there has to be accounting for the fact that Paul grew up in that community. Reggae was the music he grew up with and listened to. I understand the criticism when Gwen Stefani did her Harajuku Girl thing. That seemed exploitative to me. But I think that's apples and oranges. Oh, another I thought of - people criticized Paul Simon for Graceland, and I can understand the criticism. But on the other hand, he exposed African music to people who would have otherwise never heard it. So it's an interesting conundrum.
With all respect, does it even really matter that Paul grew up in a West Indian community? I grew up in a poor but predominately white area but as soon as I picked a guitar up I wanted to play reggae and ska (along with other genres) purely because I loved the music. Should there ever really be a restriction on that?
No, that's not what I meant by that. I was just pointing out the reason he was drawn personally to Reggae.
Got a Rake? Sure!

IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M

" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58886
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Marky Dread »

Heston wrote:
02 May 2019, 2:17pm
I don't care what key it's in, where it's come from, where it's been...
That's good someone should use that in a song.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Heston »

JennyB wrote:
02 May 2019, 4:02pm
Heston wrote:
02 May 2019, 3:21pm
JennyB wrote:
02 May 2019, 2:18pm
Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
I agree with you. And I think there has to be accounting for the fact that Paul grew up in that community. Reggae was the music he grew up with and listened to. I understand the criticism when Gwen Stefani did her Harajuku Girl thing. That seemed exploitative to me. But I think that's apples and oranges. Oh, another I thought of - people criticized Paul Simon for Graceland, and I can understand the criticism. But on the other hand, he exposed African music to people who would have otherwise never heard it. So it's an interesting conundrum.
With all respect, does it even really matter that Paul grew up in a West Indian community? I grew up in a poor but predominately white area but as soon as I picked a guitar up I wanted to play reggae and ska (along with other genres) purely because I loved the music. Should there ever really be a restriction on that?
No, that's not what I meant by that. I was just pointing out the reason he was drawn personally to Reggae.
Ok, gotcha Jenny.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

gkbill
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 4726
Joined: 23 Jun 2008, 9:21pm

Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by gkbill »

JennyB wrote:
02 May 2019, 2:18pm
Flex wrote:
02 May 2019, 1:38pm
I think I spent a hot second in the "musical appropriation" camp, and I certainly think we can acknowledge the historic, systemic injustices that, say, got Elvis rich and famous while leaving a bunch of talented black artists in poverty. But the logical endpoint of this critique actually seems to be a weird "ethnic purity" in the arts which I find very unsettling and reactionary.

And, sure, sometimes the appreciation can be a bit clumsy - Paul may be a case in point - but good lord let's have a little grace for people trying to expand their horizons, not narrow them.
I agree with you. And I think there has to be accounting for the fact that Paul grew up in that community. Reggae was the music he grew up with and listened to. I understand the criticism when Gwen Stefani did her Harajuku Girl thing. That seemed exploitative to me. But I think that's apples and oranges. Oh, another I thought of - people criticized Paul Simon for Graceland, and I can understand the criticism. But on the other hand, he exposed African music to people who would have otherwise never heard it. So it's an interesting conundrum.
Hello,

Many times an artist adopts a certain kind of music because they love it and cannot see any real material gains right away - sometimes as part of a bigger picture. I was thinking of Johnny Clegg. Clegg initially encountered a lot of resistance from white South Africans/Boers but got into the music and the associated political/social program through a love of the music. As times changed, he received broader acceptance.

Post Reply