The De-Berniator

Clash clash clash. ¡VIVAN LOS NORTEAMERICANOS DEL IMCT Y LAS BRIGADAS DEL CADILLAC NUEVO!
Marky Dread
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by Marky Dread »

Heston wrote:
10 Mar 2021, 3:56pm
CorwoodRep wrote:
09 Mar 2021, 10:09pm
Not that anyone asked, but damn it I continue to have outlet-less thoughts on this:

I re-listened to Cut the Crap and this during my walk this morning and just thought about the dynamics that led to that album getting made, and what the hell anybody thought they were doing, and whether it ever could have been good. Like, if it sounded like the reboot, where would it have landed in the market? What would it have done to The Clash's legacy? What reviews would it get?

And the more I thought about it, the more I realized it never could have worked out because Joe Strummer was never going to be in the headspace to make that happen. The well was just too poisoned. Even with the most charitable arrangement possible, half of these songs have hall of fame terrible lyrics and the majority of the vocals lack the power Joe had on stage. He sounds a bit defeated. But even if that weren't true, the songs are all too similar. It needed more dynamics, some organ, more diverse instrumentation, something.

And the football chants. Man, those football chants. Those all gotta go, and yesterday. There's something so false about them. So ugly. On the way to sounding fash.

I just can't see a world where even the retooled version gets good reviews. I think the playing would have been praised (this is a tight band) but people would correctly observe that only about four of its songs are major and many are godawful, that the vibe of the songs is really dark, and that the product as a whole doesn't have narrative cohesion. What's Life is Wild? What kind of statement is that? There's no story to this. And the album totally lacks a way in. Is The Dictator a good song? I suppose it goes hard, it's got a lot of muscle, but there's something depressing about it, unmotivated. Why are we starting here?

Just for kicks I tried to come up with a tracklisting for the dream version of this. This is just songs I knew Joe had lying around in 1984. Unsure about sequencing but here's what I got:

01. Are You Ready For War?
02. The Dictator
03. Jericho
04. Galleani
05. Out of Control
06. North and South
07. Three Card Trick
08. In The Pouring Rain
09. Sex Mad War
10. Rock ‘n Roll City
11. Before We Go Forward
12. Blues On The River
13. This Is England

Still don't know how it would have landed even if those were recorded perfect. I think it'd get respectable reviews, but it's missing something. Maybe that's Mick Jones.
Gotta disagree about Joe's vocals, I think he is great across the whole album.
Ah I maybe didn't read this the same way. I took it that the lyrics sounded deflated not the sound of the voice which is solid.
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JohnSimonBeverly
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by JohnSimonBeverly »

geraldmanns wrote:
12 Feb 2021, 12:02pm
Well, like everyone I was extremely disappointed when CTC was released in 1985. I knew the new songs from different bootlegs, like Bring The House Down, Five Alive etc. All the years after I was hoping for the existence of some mastertapes that were smuggled out of the studio in munich by a mindful technician. But literature that was released decades later showed that Paul and Pete didn't take part in the recordings.
Last year I found two different audio editing softwares with different algorithms to separate vocals from an existing audio recording. The De-Berniator idea was born. So after ripping Joe's vocals from the tracks, cleaning them up (a lot of noisy bits, especially in The Dictator, had to be removed).
Next step was to get a good live performance of every song, copying Pete's drums beat by beat into a drum machine that sampled original drum sounds.
On songs The Clash didn't perform live I had to lay down the tracks in a Pete Howard stylee by myself. After that came listening, learning, rehearsing and recording guitars and basslines.
To get a better sound I had to buy a Les Paul to differ from my Telecaster sound (nice axe to have anyway). I had to add some backing vocals because the algorithms swallowed some of the football chants (didn't make them out as vocals). It took me a while to mix it all, but now it was time to kick it out of my house.
Especially in different Facebook groups are a lot of hate regarding the last line-up of The Clash. I think these were quite descent songs and a lot of fun to listen to now. For me, this is the CTC I expected and hoped for when it was released in 1985.
Feel free to spread these recordings wherever you like, maybe it will shine a better light on the last line-up.
Have fun!
GMAN
Absolutely fantastic work! I think many of us share your feelings about Clash II and CTC. Thank you so much for sharing this!

coffeepotman
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by coffeepotman »

It's been a while now and I've gotten over the initial freak out about this and have let it sit for a while. As I'm listening to it this morning I am still just amazed at how good this is and the amount of work that went into it.

This takes me back to my initial disappointment/disgust of when this album first came out, I've hated it ever since rarely listening to it and now I really like it a lot. This needs to be celebrated.

If you haven't listened to it since Gerald dropped it on us give it another spin, it really is great!

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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by IkarisOne »

coffeepotman wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:38am
It's been a while now and I've gotten over the initial freak out about this and have let it sit for a while. As I'm listening to it this morning I am still just amazed at how good this is and the amount of work that went into it.

This takes me back to my initial disappointment/disgust of when this album first came out, I've hated it ever since rarely listening to it and now I really like it a lot. This needs to be celebrated.

If you haven't listened to it since Gerald dropped it on us give it another spin, it really is great!
It's a miracle, it really is. You actually CAN polish a turd after all. Can't thank Gerald enough.

Marky Dread
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by Marky Dread »

IkarisOne wrote:
05 May 2021, 2:27pm
coffeepotman wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:38am
It's been a while now and I've gotten over the initial freak out about this and have let it sit for a while. As I'm listening to it this morning I am still just amazed at how good this is and the amount of work that went into it.

This takes me back to my initial disappointment/disgust of when this album first came out, I've hated it ever since rarely listening to it and now I really like it a lot. This needs to be celebrated.

If you haven't listened to it since Gerald dropped it on us give it another spin, it really is great!
It's a miracle, it really is. You actually CAN polish a turd after all. Can't thank Gerald enough.
Gerald didn't polish a turd. He flushed it away. ;)
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appleseed1
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by appleseed1 »

IkarisOne wrote:
05 May 2021, 2:27pm
coffeepotman wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:38am
It's been a while now and I've gotten over the initial freak out about this and have let it sit for a while. As I'm listening to it this morning I am still just amazed at how good this is and the amount of work that went into it.

This takes me back to my initial disappointment/disgust of when this album first came out, I've hated it ever since rarely listening to it and now I really like it a lot. This needs to be celebrated.

If you haven't listened to it since Gerald dropped it on us give it another spin, it really is great!
It's a miracle, it really is. You actually CAN polish a turd after all. Can't thank Gerald enough.
I'm still playing it from beginning to end regularly! Love it! Thanks again, Gerald.

geraldmanns
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by geraldmanns »

appleseed1 wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 9:48pm
IkarisOne wrote:
05 May 2021, 2:27pm
coffeepotman wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:38am
It's been a while now and I've gotten over the initial freak out about this and have let it sit for a while. As I'm listening to it this morning I am still just amazed at how good this is and the amount of work that went into it.

This takes me back to my initial disappointment/disgust of when this album first came out, I've hated it ever since rarely listening to it and now I really like it a lot. This needs to be celebrated.

If you haven't listened to it since Gerald dropped it on us give it another spin, it really is great!
It's a miracle, it really is. You actually CAN polish a turd after all. Can't thank Gerald enough.
I'm still playing it from beginning to end regularly! Love it! Thanks again, Gerald.
You‘re welcome! Wait til you hear the remasters for the vinyl edition! I’ve added some details, you’ll love it! I will post them here when I finished the bonus tracks (Jericho, Pouring Rain, Glue Zombie and maybe Out of Control and Sex Mad War)
Re-invent the world before inventing time

CorwoodRep
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by CorwoodRep »

Really excited to hear those bonus tracks.
"Put down the meth, boy." - TeddyB, 2013.

thelatebphelium
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by thelatebphelium »

hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!

JChampion
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by JChampion »

thelatebphelium wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 10:22pm
hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!
I'm reading We Are The Clash right now also. While I know how the Clash story ends, I can't help but hope the it ends differently!
I'm American so the I'm finding the politics from both sides of the pond very informative.
So, I have a few questions that maybe the more informed could answer...
Are the views of the political events presented fair? These last few years has lead me to a lot of skepticism when reading "news".
And this is the big question.
Could The Clash, in this incarnation, have been as good as a band as the book portrays them to be?
I'm not asking about being better than The Clash classic lineup. But were they really becoming that strong on stage that with a proper producer/manager and Joe in a better place, they could have built upon the legacy in a positive way?

Heston
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by Heston »

JChampion wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 11:19am
thelatebphelium wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 10:22pm
hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!
I'm reading We Are The Clash right now also. While I know how the Clash story ends, I can't help but hope the it ends differently!
I'm American so the I'm finding the politics from both sides of the pond very informative.
So, I have a few questions that maybe the more informed could answer...
Are the views of the political events presented fair? These last few years has lead me to a lot of skepticism when reading "news".
And this is the big question.
Could The Clash, in this incarnation, have been as good as a band as the book portrays them to be?
I'm not asking about being better than The Clash classic lineup. But were they really becoming that strong on stage that with a proper producer/manager and Joe in a better place, they could have built upon the legacy in a positive way?
I'm not so sure. I think their moment had gone. And I don't think the backing vocals from the new guys were good enough. Mick sweetened their sound with his backing vocals, that was where he was really missed imo.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Marky Dread
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by Marky Dread »

Heston wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 12:45pm
JChampion wrote:
thelatebphelium wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 10:22pm
hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!
I'm reading We Are The Clash right now also. While I know how the Clash story ends, I can't help but hope the it ends differently!
I'm American so the I'm finding the politics from both sides of the pond very informative.
So, I have a few questions that maybe the more informed could answer...
Are the views of the political events presented fair? These last few years has lead me to a lot of skepticism when reading "news".
And this is the big question.
Could The Clash, in this incarnation, have been as good as a band as the book portrays them to be?
I'm not asking about being better than The Clash classic lineup. But were they really becoming that strong on stage that with a proper producer/manager and Joe in a better place, they could have built upon the legacy in a positive way?
I'm not so sure. I think their moment had gone. And I don't think the backing vocals from the new guys were good enough. Mick sweetened their sound with his backing vocals, that was where he was really missed imo.
They were not a patch on Mick as an arranger.

But could they have carried on in this guise with a decent producer then I think yes it's possible. But the biggest problem wasn't how good the band were but the changing musical landscape.
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My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty

JChampion
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by JChampion »

Marky Dread wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 12:49pm
Heston wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 12:45pm
JChampion wrote:
thelatebphelium wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 10:22pm
hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!
I'm reading We Are The Clash right now also. While I know how the Clash story ends, I can't help but hope the it ends differently!
I'm American so the I'm finding the politics from both sides of the pond very informative.
So, I have a few questions that maybe the more informed could answer...
Are the views of the political events presented fair? These last few years has lead me to a lot of skepticism when reading "news".
And this is the big question.
Could The Clash, in this incarnation, have been as good as a band as the book portrays them to be?
I'm not asking about being better than The Clash classic lineup. But were they really becoming that strong on stage that with a proper producer/manager and Joe in a better place, they could have built upon the legacy in a positive way?
I'm not so sure. I think their moment had gone. And I don't think the backing vocals from the new guys were good enough. Mick sweetened their sound with his backing vocals, that was where he was really missed imo.
They were not a patch on Mick as an arranger.

But could they have carried on in this guise with a decent producer then I think yes it's possible. But the biggest problem wasn't how good the band were but the changing musical landscape.
So to be fair then, without Mick as an arranger and being there to move the band forward musically, The Clash mkII would have still faded away. Correct?
I do love the vocal play between Mick and Joe especially on Rudie Can’t Fail.

JChampion
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by JChampion »

Oh, another thing, damn you Bernie!
;)

Marky Dread
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Re: The De-Berniator

Post by Marky Dread »

JChampion wrote:
15 Jul 2021, 1:26pm
Marky Dread wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 12:49pm
Heston wrote:
14 Jul 2021, 12:45pm
JChampion wrote:
thelatebphelium wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 10:22pm
hey Gerald... fucking brilliant!!!

i'm reading the We Are The Clash book right now and went on another YouTube dive looking for Clash II bits. and stumbled across your fucking great redux. thank you!!!

i can't wait to hear the new tweaks and bonus cuts. superb job!!!
I'm reading We Are The Clash right now also. While I know how the Clash story ends, I can't help but hope the it ends differently!
I'm American so the I'm finding the politics from both sides of the pond very informative.
So, I have a few questions that maybe the more informed could answer...
Are the views of the political events presented fair? These last few years has lead me to a lot of skepticism when reading "news".
And this is the big question.
Could The Clash, in this incarnation, have been as good as a band as the book portrays them to be?
I'm not asking about being better than The Clash classic lineup. But were they really becoming that strong on stage that with a proper producer/manager and Joe in a better place, they could have built upon the legacy in a positive way?
I'm not so sure. I think their moment had gone. And I don't think the backing vocals from the new guys were good enough. Mick sweetened their sound with his backing vocals, that was where he was really missed imo.
They were not a patch on Mick as an arranger.

But could they have carried on in this guise with a decent producer then I think yes it's possible. But the biggest problem wasn't how good the band were but the changing musical landscape.
So to be fair then, without Mick as an arranger and being there to move the band forward musically, The Clash mkII would have still faded away. Correct?
I do love the vocal play between Mick and Joe especially on Rudie Can’t Fail.
I'm sure it's not as simple as that. The moving forward bit definitely. But if The Clash (II) were planning on being a punk band and I'm referring to the sound of their music as opposed to attitude then I feel they would need a rethink.

If the album had been released resembling something similar to Gerald's work then it would've no doubt of fared better. Maybe Joe would've continued with the band. But you've got to look at the musical landscape and the way punk bands were being perceived.

With Mick they were always changing and moving with the times. Combat Rock (hello haters) was a clever mix of rock and pop. Cut the Crap by contrast didn't have those kind of chops.
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