If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Politics and other such topical creams.
Post Reply
Howard Beale
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 172
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:51am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Howard Beale »

eumaas wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 10:31am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 10:01am
eumaas wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 9:08am
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/us/p ... apons.html

Putting sanctions on China would be an unhinged decision. They can't possibly mean to follow through on it.
I'd be extremely surprised as Biden has handled this in a rather low-key manner thus far, seemingly to avoid giving Russia an easy anti-American counter-argument. It's all been about gathering allies to isolate Russia in the world, to make it a pariah state, and a move like that would seem to push China and Russia together, not apart.
China's been pretty neutral and I think their media has started covering civilian casualties in Ukraine. Going through China would be the most sensible route for diplomatic pressure on Russia (I said this to a friend of mine the day the war started). The public threat has to just be for jingoistic ego reasons, right? I've not been impressed by the Biden admin but they can't be nuts enough to seriously consider sanctions. I do think the war fever is a bit out of control from the Biden admin perspective given how the press secretary is constantly being uh pressed on the no fly zone issue.
Blinken (aka Skinny Pompeo) certainly can. The guy's a maniac and no functionally different than the neocons from the Bush Administration. We're probably going to see him float a lot more terrible ideas as this war drags on.

Low Down Low
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 4921
Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:08am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Low Down Low »

In relation to biden, i never knew how much to expect anyway, but the pretty blatant theft of $7bn off the Afghanis is pretty much the last straw for me. It's a bit off the topic I know, but I'm still stunned as to how this can be deemed morally or legally acceptable. Like he's punishing the people for causing him humiliation by not holding out against the Taliban last August.

eumaas
User avatar
Klezmer Shogun
Posts: 23579
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 8:10pm
Location: deep in your Id

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by eumaas »

Howard Beale wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 10:45am
eumaas wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 10:31am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 10:01am
eumaas wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 9:08am
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/us/p ... apons.html

Putting sanctions on China would be an unhinged decision. They can't possibly mean to follow through on it.
I'd be extremely surprised as Biden has handled this in a rather low-key manner thus far, seemingly to avoid giving Russia an easy anti-American counter-argument. It's all been about gathering allies to isolate Russia in the world, to make it a pariah state, and a move like that would seem to push China and Russia together, not apart.
China's been pretty neutral and I think their media has started covering civilian casualties in Ukraine. Going through China would be the most sensible route for diplomatic pressure on Russia (I said this to a friend of mine the day the war started). The public threat has to just be for jingoistic ego reasons, right? I've not been impressed by the Biden admin but they can't be nuts enough to seriously consider sanctions. I do think the war fever is a bit out of control from the Biden admin perspective given how the press secretary is constantly being uh pressed on the no fly zone issue.
Blinken (aka Skinny Pompeo) certainly can. The guy's a maniac and no functionally different than the neocons from the Bush Administration. We're probably going to see him float a lot more terrible ideas as this war drags on.
It has been bizarre to see the Dems become the home for rehabilitated neocons. Started with Clinton in 2016 and has just accelerated.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

eumaas
User avatar
Klezmer Shogun
Posts: 23579
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 8:10pm
Location: deep in your Id

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by eumaas »

Taibbi has a piece on expressing how fucking disorienting the political climate is now for anyone who has a decent memory of the past 20 years:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/orwell-was-right?s=r
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35799
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Flex »

eumaas wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 12:34pm
Taibbi has a piece on expressing how fucking disorienting the political climate is now for anyone who has a decent memory of the past 20 years:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/orwell-was-right?s=r
Unfortunately, I think it's almost universal to think that propaganda and dissembling is fine as long as you support the end goal of said dissembling and propaganda. I don't think any movement or ideology seems particularly resistant to that. Even taibbi's outrage here is selective (with some odd targets thrown in the mix at the end). Which is fine, whatever. I agree with his basic point. See, and now I'm probably doing it too.

I've gotten very cynical about all this. Which is what lots of other jaded leftists predicted would happen, which is annoying.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115976
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I admit that I somewhat skimmed Taibbi's piece, but I will suggest a couple sort-of counters (without denying the basic thrust of the piece). I think we're undergoing a cultural shift with regards to speech, from an individualized ideal where the most important principle is expression, regardless of consequence; to a more social or community ideal, where consequences are considered morally good checks. I've gravitated towards that latter position more as consequence-free speech, good or bad, seems hollow at best, socially corrosive at worst. While that runs the risk of censorship and repression (think McCarthyism), I'm not sure it qualifies as Orwellian.

Related to the above, if we regard the invasion of Ukraine as a crisis (in the same way the pandemic is a crisis), then it's not hypocritical or irrational to accept some norms and tolerances are suspended in the interim. One of the failures of libertarians and libertarianism during the pandemic is the unwillingness to be flexible to crisis circumstances. Principles shouldn't be a suicide pact.

I guess that while I appreciate critiques of Western culture and politics, I'm reluctant to default to us being functional hypocrites or totalitarian wannabes. Maybe that's me engaging in some kind of doublethink, but I'm just not that jaundiced.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft


Mimi
User avatar
Goddess of the Underworld
Posts: 8753
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:36pm
Location: Down in the pit

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Mimi »


Sparky
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 4415
Joined: 01 Dec 2020, 5:31pm
Location: Left Of The Dial

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Sparky »

God, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58881
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Marky Dread »

Excellent, good on them.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Henrythegreen
Corner Soul
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Mar 2022, 5:35am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Henrythegreen »

They’ve done a great job of the re-write, it could have been really cringey but it’s not. Favourite line: “after all this, won’t you give us an airforce”

I imagine this subject is of some personal importance for Mick Jones, with his family history of escaping Russian oppression.

FarawayTowns
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 167
Joined: 20 Jan 2020, 5:13pm

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by FarawayTowns »


Also, Oliver Stone has a documentary on Ukraine from 2016 that's now available for free online. Haven't seen it yet, but it's probably at least worth a watch.
Thanks for the link. I watched the documentary over the weekend. I was quite surprised how slanted it was to a Russian viewpoint. For that reason I would think carefully about recommending it to anyone whose mind I was trying to open to the background of what is happening now. I think that there is a strong possibility that it would be viewed as pro Kremlin propaganda. Also rightly or wrongly it's open to criticisms of bordering on conspiracy theories.

For anyone interested who doesn't want to spend 90 minutes watching it. This article sums up the points pretty succinctly.

https://traveltomorrow.com/oliver-stone ... raine-war/

Maybe it's necessary to also watch 'Winter on Fire' for a more rounded view.


Howard Beale
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 172
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:51am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Howard Beale »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 3:45pm
I admit that I somewhat skimmed Taibbi's piece, but I will suggest a couple sort-of counters (without denying the basic thrust of the piece). I think we're undergoing a cultural shift with regards to speech, from an individualized ideal where the most important principle is expression, regardless of consequence; to a more social or community ideal, where consequences are considered morally good checks. I've gravitated towards that latter position more as consequence-free speech, good or bad, seems hollow at best, socially corrosive at worst. While that runs the risk of censorship and repression (think McCarthyism), I'm not sure it qualifies as Orwellian.
Since Taibbi used 1984 as his reference point, I'd say the overall phenomenon he's exploring in the piece is the symbiosis of government (and media) propaganda and the opinions of the general public (Americans most specifically). While your point about shifting societal attitudes toward free speech in the purely cultural (i.e. not related to the First Amendment) context is an interesting conversation in and of itself, I don't think we can have a fair critique of the article if we take out the interwoven strand of the role of the state (and mainstream media, its de facto propaganda apparatus) in shaping and directing the flow of those attitudes.

I'd argue that the "doublethink" that Taibbi refers to here very much is Orwellian. We're a long way removed from the ACLU Skokie Case of 1977, the concept of free speech—even specifically in relation to the First Amendment—seems to be on much shakier ground in the age of Big Tech. We now have so-called journalists calling for the censoring of the very platform on which we read the Taibbi piece we're currently discussing; we have people like Richard Stengel, a former high-ranking official in Obama's State Dept. (and later a member of Biden's transition team overseeing news and information) calling on us to "rethink" the First Amendment "for practical reasons in society."

This sounds very Big Brother to me...



Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Mar 2022, 3:45pm
Related to the above, if we regard the invasion of Ukraine as a crisis (in the same way the pandemic is a crisis), then it's not hypocritical or irrational to accept some norms and tolerances are suspended in the interim. One of the failures of libertarians and libertarianism during the pandemic is the unwillingness to be flexible to crisis circumstances. Principles shouldn't be a suicide pact.
The problem with this, I think, is that in practice it tends to only cut one way. The people in power are never asked to make such sacrifices or even to reduce the active harm they often cause in the face of a crisis, that's only for the plebes. You mentioned the pandemic. While, for example, some guy in a MAGA hat screaming in the middle of a Wal Mart about how tyrannical it is that he's being asked to wear a mask during the early days of the pandemic is certainly obnoxious, delusional, contemptible, etc., it's not as if he and his ilk have any actual power. In fact, that's what those people's support for Trump actually was in the first place—an inarticulate howl of impotent rage.

Following on from that example, I could just post a bunch of pictures of maskless politicians and celebrities out mingling in public from the same time frame in which they were chiding all of us in order to drive home the point, but Taibbi offers up a much more infuriating, and frankly, dangerous example of how those in power do not play by the same rules as the rest of us.
Now the swastika in the Ukrainian context has been un-banned by Facebook, you can buy Azov Battalion mugs and t-shirts on Amazon, and we have headlines like “Are there really neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine? Well, yes — but it's a long story.” In an effort to argue that Putin is worse than Hitler, we have people like Atlantic Council senior fellow Anders Aslund saying “Hitler had more arguments for his attack on Poland,” and former U.S. Ambassador and Stanford professor Michael McFaul saying on live TV that Hitler “didn't kill ethnic Germans, German-speaking people.”
We've been told our whole lives that it is absolutely unacceptable to whitewash the crimes of the Third Reich or downplay the Holocaust (which I certainly agree with). Yet, the level of Nazi apologia and revisionism that we've seen from Beltway hacks and MSM pundits the last few weeks has been jaw-dropping.





Image

Once the media realized that the sight of a hot war in Europe eight decades after WWII in which Russians were once again fighting Nazis might undercut their Putin-is-Hitler narrative, they knew they had to pivot. America getting into bed with neo-Nazis necessitated the rehabilitation of historical Nazis, up to and including Hitler himself. So immediately, without an iota of shame, they swapped "PUTIN IS HITLER!" for "When you really think about it, Hitler wasn't so bad. Putin is way worse."

Image

You'd think that'd be the most infuriating part, but it isn't. No, the worst part is, once this is all over and the dust settles, none of these people will pay any sort of price for any of this. They're currently trivializing the Holocaust and Nazism out of craven political expediency, but they will not hesitate even slightly in the future to disingenuously accuse others of doing the same. Remember, many of these are the same people who sold us on WMD in Iraq. These people fail upward, they get rewarded the more wrong they are. When Joe or Jane Schmoe act in a selfish manner in the face of a crisis, it results in a viral Karen video on YouTube; when those in power do so, it results in refugee crises, failed states and the deaths of innocent people numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands. If people are more worked up over the former than the latter, then I'd say it largely proves Taibbi's point.






I feel like this would fit nicely into Taibbi's article as yet another example of "doublethink"—"London Calling" re-written as a pro-war, pro-NATO anthem. While I found that disturbing enough on its face, I decided to dig a little further and see if I could find out more about these guys. Here's what I found...

On their Bandcamp page, they boast of their "righteous Galician nerve and psychosis," which set off red flags for me right away. Turned out Billy Bragg was way ahead of me.
Viral Ukranian band Beton appear to have unsettling links to fascist iconography.

The group's take on 'London Calling' by The Clash went viral over the weekend, with 'Kyiv Calling' gaining global support.

The NME covered the song, while the Guardian called it "a call to arms", with Beton landing on Sky headlines in the process.

Billy Bragg initially seemed pleased by the cover version, and expressed his support - before fans on the ground in Ukraine called his attention to some troubling links.

In a new post, Billy Bragg explains that he discovered a photograph depicting "members of the band wearing t-shirts based on the Ramones circular logo. The word 'Ramones' at the top of the logo had been replaced with the word 'Banderas' and although all of the names within the circle were not visible, the one that was clearly read 'Stepan'. The photos dated from a year ago."

The English songwriter continues: "This is deeply troubling. Stepan Bandera was a far-right Ukranian politician who collaborated with the Nazis during the occupation of Ukraine and whose followers were complicit in the Holocaust. That he did these things in the name of Ukranian independence from the Soviet Union has led some present day far right nationalists to adopt his image in their decade long struggle with Russia."

"The knock on effect of this has been to allow Putin to smear all those who want a democratic Ukraine free from Russian influence as neo-nazis. The lionisation of Bandera explains his attempt to legitimize the invasion as a campaign of 'denazification', despite the fact that when, during the 2019 Ukrainian elections, all of the major far right Ukrainian parties formed a unified party for the national election, they gained just 2.15% of the vote and failed to secure a single seat in the national parliament. Compare that with the 2009 EU parliament election, where the BNP won 6% of the vote."

Billy Bragg attempted to communicate with Beton, but was rebuffed. He writes: "I left a message on the band's Facebook page asking them to explain why they were wearing t-shirts that appeared to support Bandera, but after 24 hours, I've had no response, so I've deleted my post."

"We can argue about the meaning of 'London Calling' and what Joe Strummer would or wouldn't have said about the lyrical changes, but we can be damn sure that he would not have allowed his song to be utilised by a band that expressed their support for fascists."
Image

I mentioned Stepan Bandera in passing in my original post, he was a Nazi collaborator and the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B), who killed hundreds of thousands of Jews, Poles and Russians. He remains something of a popular figure in Ukraine and is still honored with statues and on postage stamps. Although Bandera's legacy is at least controversial within mainstream society in Ukraine, he's pretty much universally worshiped by far-right nationalist and neo-Nazi groups there, who have annual marches to celebrate his birthday.

Image

The band responded on their Facebook page yesterday, and again today. For what it's worth, they deny being racist and pro-fascist, but have twice doubled down on their Bandera support.
This night we had some attacks with blaming our band in fascism and nazism. Especially because of our T-shirts with Stepan Bandera’s name.

Stepan Bandera is a hero to many Ukrainians, a symbol of resistance to russian occupation, a symbol of Maidan. He also spent many years in a Nazi concentration camp as a prisoner

We understand and we condemn that some people could do some atrocities while using Bandera’s name.

Up to our band - we recorded the track because we love The Clash and their stance on resistance to oppression. Like them we are anti-fascist and anti-racist. We want to live in a democratic country free from war where everyone is welcome from every race and creed

Anyone who listens to our songs will see that we write about resistance, consumerism and freedom. We sing about drunk drivers and mean oligarchs. We have no time for extremist politics.

SLAVA UKRAYINI!
STATEMENT FROM BETON

Beton apologise for any offence caused by photos of our band members in tee shirts carrying the name of Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera. We have removed the images from our Facebook page. We understand that perceptions of Bandera around the world are different from those held by many Ukrainians. We realise he is a very controversial figure. And we would like to clarify our position.

Like many eastern European countries during the 20th century, Ukraine suffered greatly from being invaded by both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Badera’s passion for Ukrainian independence led him to both collaborate with the Nazis and then turn against them when they tried to supress the country. During the most troubling period in our nation’s history, Bandera was sent to a concentration camp for resisting the Nazis.

His experience is a reminder that our history is complex and we accept there are very dark chapters in it. Nonetheless, we believe that it is up to all Ukrainians, irrespective of their ethnic or religious affiliations, who finally have secured the opportunity to openly and democratically debate the legacy of their historical figures, to ensure that this debate includes acknowledging and accepting crimes that have been committed both against them as victims and by them as perpetrators.

We need a national debate about our history and contested memory - exactly the kind of debate that would be impossible in Putin's Russia. The invader is trapped by the past, seeing everything through the prism of Russia’s imperial history. We in Ukraine are seeking to escape that prison and to take our place as a nation free to make our own democratic choices.

This is the Ukraine that we are fighting for – a place where people of all races and creeds can work together to build a nation free from oppression.

Slava The Clash! Slava Ukraini!
The slogan at the end there is something I also referenced in a previous post...
•In 2018, Ukraine made notorious Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera's OUN-B organization's slogan the official greeting of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Not just of the Azov Battalion, mind you, but for the entire Ukrainian military.
There's also this: per the Guardian article and the music video, the band is affiliated with the Free Ukraine Resistance Movement. According to their website, FURM was "founded by the leaders of the Maidan Self-Defence group back in 2014." I've heard of Maidan Self-Defence specifically in reference to their being the perpetrators (along with Right Sector, a neo-Nazi militia I referenced in an earlier post) of the Trade Unions House Massacre in Odessa, in which over 40 pro-Russian protestors were burned or beaten to death.
On that day aggressive supporters of the Euromaidan campaign, who had arrived in Odessa in the guise of football fans, and local opponents of the new Ukrainian authorities clashed in the centre of the city. The skirmishes then moved towards Kulikovo Field Square. Radical members of the Right Sector group (an organization outlawed as extremist in Russia) and the so-called Maidan Self-Defence, sent from Kiev, raided a tent camp where local activists were collecting signatures in support of a federalization referendum.

A crowd of football fans and ultra-right militants drove the protesters into the House of Trade Unions. A short while later a fire began inside the building, besieged by Euromaidan activists. The radicals prevented fire-fighting vehicles from approaching the building, fired shots at people trying to escape from the blaze and finished off some survivors with sticks. A total of 42 people died in the fire or of wounds, six others were shot dead, and more than 200 were injured.
FURM is also associated with the Capitulation Resistance Movement and openly brag on their website about their part in sabotaging the implementation of the Minsk peace plan (which very likely would have averted this war in the first place). The Capitulation Resistance Movement has long been dominated by far-right groups like Svoboda and Azov.



So, there ya go. Much like their hero Bandera, they appear to not be outright Nazis, but extremely sympathetic to Nazis and having significant overlap in the causes they support. Even putting all the Bandera and far-right stuff aside (not that you should), re-imagining LC as a rallying cry for World War III was already enough of a dealbreaker for me and about as far as it's possible to get from why I became a Clash fan in the first place. But hey, your mileage may vary.






FarawayTowns wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 7:44am

Also, Oliver Stone has a documentary on Ukraine from 2016 that's now available for free online. Haven't seen it yet, but it's probably at least worth a watch.
Thanks for the link. I watched the documentary over the weekend. I was quite surprised how slanted it was to a Russian viewpoint. For that reason I would think carefully about recommending it to anyone whose mind I was trying to open to the background of what is happening now. I think that there is a strong possibility that it would be viewed as pro Kremlin propaganda. Also rightly or wrongly it's open to criticisms of bordering on conspiracy theories.

For anyone interested who doesn't want to spend 90 minutes watching it. This article sums up the points pretty succinctly.

https://traveltomorrow.com/oliver-stone ... raine-war/

Maybe it's necessary to also watch 'Winter on Fire' for a more rounded view.

Thanks for the review! Does sound like it may be a bit lopsided, but I'm still gonna check it out. I actually didn't realize that Oliver Stone didn't direct it, just served as executive producer and as the in-film interviewer. It's apparently part of a trilogy of films on Ukraine by the director Igor Lopatonok: UoF is the first one, then Revealing Ukraine (2019) and The Everlasting Present—Ukraine: 30 Years of InDependence (2021). Per the credit listings on IMDB, it doesn't appear that Stone had any involvement in the third one.

I'm curious about Winter on Fire, although I've heard it's heavily slanted in the other direction and I've seen it recommended in a couple mainstream news articles. If you do watch it, please let us know if it's worth seeing.

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35799
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Flex »

*Edit* ignore please. Posted while hangry and made an uncharitable comment.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Howard Beale
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 172
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:51am

Re: If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

Post by Howard Beale »

Flex wrote:
22 Mar 2022, 3:36pm
*Edit* ignore please. Posted while hangry and made an uncharitable comment.
I saw the comment and it's totally cool and no issue, I get where you're coming from. I just meant that I've heard it leaves out a lot of the details we've discussed on here and has a general "Russia bad" message in the way it sounds like the Stone doc may have too uncritical of a "Russia good" message.

Post Reply