Bernie's book

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IkarisOne
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by IkarisOne »

matedog wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:47am
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:22am
Inder wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 5:33pm
I had a look at Bernie's website a while back and it seems like he has some pretty serious health issues going on, so maybe some charity is in order...
Agreed. When all is said and done, Bernie is the reason we're all here. It was his vision and his madness that made The Clash. And when you get down to it he, Mick and Joe are far, far more alike than not. I see them as three brothers under the skin, with different virtues but many of the same vices. Clash fandom always loves a good scapegoat but I think Gabby said it best when she noted that they were all totally fucked in the head. Truly creative people usually are.
I think among us megafans, Bernie is seen a tremendously important and critical figure to the band. Even his return in 80/81 spiced things up. There's a great "what if" if he left in early 82 or so though.
I think even with Cut the Crap there's an issue I think hasn't been addressed and that's Joe's depressive episodes following the tour diminishing his ability to contribute. Bernie's well-observed imperious behavior during this period seems more to me like he was deeply afraid that Joe wasn't going to make it and he was going to be stuck holding the bag, which you could argue he was. I sense a tremendous amount of panic and indecision in some of Bernie's production choices, like he was in over his head and didn't know how to dig himself out. And the panic just manifested with that domineering behavior, a false front.

Nick said that Bernie didn't have bad intentions- he wanted The Clash to be the biggest and most groundbreaking punk band ever but didn't have the know-how to make it happen. And Joe's dad dying and his mom getting cancer was ultimately what really did the entire project in. Had Joe been at full strength, things might have gone very differently.

But it's OK now- Gerald fixed it for us.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by IkarisOne »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:34pm
Like with McLaren, I can respect their intellectual contributions and critiques of the music business, but they each treated the people they were hired to look out for abysmally. On a human level, I can never overlook their predatory character, to manipulate and discard other people.
I totally agree, but one might argue the same mercenary inclinations in Joe. For my money, Tymon was the catalyst that made the Meskies a real band and Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn - who yanked Joe off the La-Z-Boy in the first place - and Smiley. And Mick was hardly better- you don't have two successful bands in a row decide they can't handle your nonsense if there were no nonsense to be handled in the first place.

I'd also use the director analogy- you hear a lot of stories about what tyrants a lot of great directors were. Well, if you've had any experience with people in that business you know that they usually need someone cracking the cat-o-nines.

Creativity is a distinct kind of mental dysfunction and we should always be shocked when a creative process succeeds, not when it implodes.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Dr. Medulla »

IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:34pm
Like with McLaren, I can respect their intellectual contributions and critiques of the music business, but they each treated the people they were hired to look out for abysmally. On a human level, I can never overlook their predatory character, to manipulate and discard other people.
I totally agree, but one might argue the same mercenary inclinations in Joe. For my money, Tymon was the catalyst that made the Meskies a real band and Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn - who yanked Joe off the La-Z-Boy in the first place - and Smiley. And Mick was hardly better- you don't have two successful bands in a row decide they can't handle your nonsense if there were no nonsense to be handled in the first place.

I'd also use the director analogy- you hear a lot of stories about what tyrants a lot of great directors were. Well, if you've had any experience with people in that business you know that they usually need someone cracking the cat-o-nines.

Creativity is a distinct kind of mental dysfunction and we should always be shocked when a creative process succeeds, not when it implodes.
A former friend of mine was a huge Elvis fan, but winced at a lot of his, um, eccentricities about women. I always came back with Elvis might not have been Elvis if he had been “a better person.” So I do understand and accept that these people have unconventional attitudes towards dealing with people, but there is some undefined line for me—I know if when it’s crossed—in terms of regarding other human beings. Which is probably why I’ve never been all that keen on meeting musicians and the like—let me enjoy and be inspired by your work and not potentially have it ruined by seeing what a dickhole you are to people.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Marky Dread »

IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:38pm
matedog wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:47am
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:22am
Inder wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 5:33pm
I had a look at Bernie's website a while back and it seems like he has some pretty serious health issues going on, so maybe some charity is in order...
Agreed. When all is said and done, Bernie is the reason we're all here. It was his vision and his madness that made The Clash. And when you get down to it he, Mick and Joe are far, far more alike than not. I see them as three brothers under the skin, with different virtues but many of the same vices. Clash fandom always loves a good scapegoat but I think Gabby said it best when she noted that they were all totally fucked in the head. Truly creative people usually are.
I think among us megafans, Bernie is seen a tremendously important and critical figure to the band. Even his return in 80/81 spiced things up. There's a great "what if" if he left in early 82 or so though.
I think even with Cut the Crap there's an issue I think hasn't been addressed and that's Joe's depressive episodes following the tour diminishing his ability to contribute. Bernie's well-observed imperious behavior during this period seems more to me like he was deeply afraid that Joe wasn't going to make it and he was going to be stuck holding the bag, which you could argue he was. I sense a tremendous amount of panic and indecision in some of Bernie's production choices, like he was in over his head and didn't know how to dig himself out. And the panic just manifested with that domineering behavior, a false front.

Nick said that Bernie didn't have bad intentions- he wanted The Clash to be the biggest and most groundbreaking punk band ever but didn't have the know-how to make it happen. And Joe's dad dying and his mom getting cancer was ultimately what really did the entire project in. Had Joe been at full strength, things might have gone very differently.

But it's OK now- Gerald fixed it for us.
And yet they auditioned other singers after Joe left/quit.

Something else occurred to me today when you look at the crap image of the Clash at this stage. They looked absolutely terrible with the pleather and bullet belts. They looked really corny and fake. That itself must've had an effect on Joe who was not a young punk any more. It's no surprise he quickly reverted back to his Springsteen/cowboy image and went on to play music not that far away from what he did with The 101ers with the added latino style.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Kory
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Kory »

IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Low Down Low »

Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Heston »

Marky Dread wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 1:33pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:38pm
matedog wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:47am
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:22am
Inder wrote:
06 Nov 2022, 5:33pm
I had a look at Bernie's website a while back and it seems like he has some pretty serious health issues going on, so maybe some charity is in order...
Agreed. When all is said and done, Bernie is the reason we're all here. It was his vision and his madness that made The Clash. And when you get down to it he, Mick and Joe are far, far more alike than not. I see them as three brothers under the skin, with different virtues but many of the same vices. Clash fandom always loves a good scapegoat but I think Gabby said it best when she noted that they were all totally fucked in the head. Truly creative people usually are.
I think among us megafans, Bernie is seen a tremendously important and critical figure to the band. Even his return in 80/81 spiced things up. There's a great "what if" if he left in early 82 or so though.
I think even with Cut the Crap there's an issue I think hasn't been addressed and that's Joe's depressive episodes following the tour diminishing his ability to contribute. Bernie's well-observed imperious behavior during this period seems more to me like he was deeply afraid that Joe wasn't going to make it and he was going to be stuck holding the bag, which you could argue he was. I sense a tremendous amount of panic and indecision in some of Bernie's production choices, like he was in over his head and didn't know how to dig himself out. And the panic just manifested with that domineering behavior, a false front.

Nick said that Bernie didn't have bad intentions- he wanted The Clash to be the biggest and most groundbreaking punk band ever but didn't have the know-how to make it happen. And Joe's dad dying and his mom getting cancer was ultimately what really did the entire project in. Had Joe been at full strength, things might have gone very differently.

But it's OK now- Gerald fixed it for us.
And yet they auditioned other singers after Joe left/quit.

Something else occurred to me today when you look at the crap image of the Clash at this stage. They looked absolutely terrible with the pleather and bullet belts. They looked really corny and fake. That itself must've had an effect on Joe who was not a young punk any more. It's no surprise he quickly reverted back to his Springsteen/cowboy image and went on to play music not that far away from what he did with The 101ers with the added latino style.
I always thought Joe seemed to shrink during the Clash II years. His posture seemed all wrong. It was regained when they split.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Marky Dread »

Heston wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 1:42am
Marky Dread wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 1:33pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:38pm
matedog wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:47am
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 11:22am


Agreed. When all is said and done, Bernie is the reason we're all here. It was his vision and his madness that made The Clash. And when you get down to it he, Mick and Joe are far, far more alike than not. I see them as three brothers under the skin, with different virtues but many of the same vices. Clash fandom always loves a good scapegoat but I think Gabby said it best when she noted that they were all totally fucked in the head. Truly creative people usually are.
I think among us megafans, Bernie is seen a tremendously important and critical figure to the band. Even his return in 80/81 spiced things up. There's a great "what if" if he left in early 82 or so though.
I think even with Cut the Crap there's an issue I think hasn't been addressed and that's Joe's depressive episodes following the tour diminishing his ability to contribute. Bernie's well-observed imperious behavior during this period seems more to me like he was deeply afraid that Joe wasn't going to make it and he was going to be stuck holding the bag, which you could argue he was. I sense a tremendous amount of panic and indecision in some of Bernie's production choices, like he was in over his head and didn't know how to dig himself out. And the panic just manifested with that domineering behavior, a false front.

Nick said that Bernie didn't have bad intentions- he wanted The Clash to be the biggest and most groundbreaking punk band ever but didn't have the know-how to make it happen. And Joe's dad dying and his mom getting cancer was ultimately what really did the entire project in. Had Joe been at full strength, things might have gone very differently.

But it's OK now- Gerald fixed it for us.
And yet they auditioned other singers after Joe left/quit.

Something else occurred to me today when you look at the crap image of the Clash at this stage. They looked absolutely terrible with the pleather and bullet belts. They looked really corny and fake. That itself must've had an effect on Joe who was not a young punk any more. It's no surprise he quickly reverted back to his Springsteen/cowboy image and went on to play music not that far away from what he did with The 101ers with the added latino style.
I always thought Joe seemed to shrink during the Clash II years. His posture seemed all wrong. It was regained when they split.
Agree mate. It did feel like he had become a shadow of his former self. Compare that to how healthy he looked when he did the barge interview with Chris Salewicz only a couple of years later.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

msza2
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by msza2 »

Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Low Down Low »

msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 7:59am
Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.
Tymon wasn't present at the initial sessions but was due to be present at the post xmas sessions so what his input might have been but for fate intervening i guess we'll never know. I suppose the fact they had set on making a rocked up album wasn't in his best interests from the start while Scott, Martin etc seemed to be all for it.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by msza2 »

Low Down Low wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 10:07am
msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 7:59am
Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.
Tymon wasn't present at the initial sessions but was due to be present at the post xmas sessions so what his input might have been but for fate intervening i guess we'll never know. I suppose the fact they had set on making a rocked up album wasn't in his best interests from the start while Scott, Martin etc seemed to be all for it.
Ah, thanks, I didn't know about the post x-mas session on the books. To me that seems to suggest that Joe was still on board with him, but what do I know. It's tantalizing to think of what that session would have produced. We know of a few tunes but I wonder if Tymon had anything in mind.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Low Down Low »

msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 11:02am
Low Down Low wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 10:07am
msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 7:59am
Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm


Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.
Tymon wasn't present at the initial sessions but was due to be present at the post xmas sessions so what his input might have been but for fate intervening i guess we'll never know. I suppose the fact they had set on making a rocked up album wasn't in his best interests from the start while Scott, Martin etc seemed to be all for it.
Ah, thanks, I didn't know about the post x-mas session on the books. To me that seems to suggest that Joe was still on board with him, but what do I know. It's tantalizing to think of what that session would have produced. We know of a few tunes but I wonder if Tymon had anything in mind.
Yeah, I've no idea what sort of issues might have existed between Tymon and Joe. Nothing I can recall reading about before anyway. Does seem like there was some creative tension going on within the band but that might not have been something that Joe minded, maybe even encouraged. I don't know really.

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Re: Bernie's book

Post by IkarisOne »

msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 7:59am
Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.
I dont think it was with Joe, it was the other two. I think it might be touched on in Visions of a Homeland but it was definitely being discussed at Strummer News and Tim's old board at the time.

Marky Dread
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Re: Bernie's book

Post by Marky Dread »

IkarisOne wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 1:22pm
msza2 wrote:
10 Nov 2022, 7:59am
Low Down Low wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:40pm
Kory wrote:
09 Nov 2022, 8:01pm
IkarisOne wrote:
08 Nov 2022, 12:46pm
Joe was fixing to can him like he did with Antony Genn
Was this from an interview? I hadn't heard about Tymon's impending dismissal.
I was a bit curious to read in the Pat Gilbert Mojo piece that there was some tension between Tymon and other members of the band, but I can't recall ever hearing or reading anything about his imminent sacking.
I remember reading (where, I don't recall) that after Joe died Martin and Scott shut out Tymon while they finished Streetcore. Notice Tymon is nowhere to be found on it except for Silver & Gold, which was a Global outtake M&S were initially reluctant to include but relented at Luce's insistence.

I had also never heard about any tension between Joe and Tymon.
I dont think it was with Joe, it was the other two. I think it might be touched on in Visions of a Homeland but it was definitely being discussed at Strummer News and Tim's old board at the time.
So Joe wasn't exactly fixing to can his old friend but didn't want the other two be at loggerheads with Tymon.

In fairness Slattery and Shields would've been a far greater loss to the Mescaleros as they were both amazing multi-instrumentalists in my opinion.

Do you think that's a fair comment CK?
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Rie: Bernie's book

Post by Low Down Low »

Have to say outwardly the chemistry of the final line up looked absolutely spot on to me. I thought Tymon was an inspired addition and gave them a new dimension that elevated them beyond the previous set up. Live, they were simply fantastic. I never did give much thought into the internal dynamics, just assumed they were all one big happy family!

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